Patricia Karvelas, Host: Don Farrell, welcome to the program.
Don Farrell, Minister for Trade and Tourism: Thanks, Patricia. Great to be with you.
Host: On the EU Free Trade Agreement, the Coalition is raising some objections, as you know. They say the usual process is that you would negotiate with the Coalition to get a bipartisan deal. They're particularly concerned about the climate commitments in that agreement. Are you just freezing them out? How are you engaging on this?
Minister: Look, I am negotiating with every single person in this place. For the Opposition to say that I'm freezing them out is, well, it's completely untrue. Right from day one, I sought to have discussions with my counterpart, which is Matt Canavan and their Foreign Affairs Representative, Ted O'Brien, and they walked out of the meeting. They walked out of the meeting when I was explaining to them the benefits of this agreement. So, if they want to talk, my door is always open. I'm regularly meeting with members of the Parliament to explain the benefits of this agreement. This agreement is not just one new free trade agreement, Patricia. We currently have about 30 trade agreements. This adds 27 countries to that list. So, in one fell swoop, we almost double the number of countries with whom we have a free trade agreement. 450 million consumers, an economy of $33 trillion. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to get an agreement with the Europeans. I will talk to anybody for however long it takes in order to get this agreement through the Parliament.
Host: Do you accept that your pathway now seems closed on the coalition side and very difficult on the Greens side? You don't actually have a clear pathway.
Minister: No, I don't accept that. I'm continuing to discuss with everybody in the Parliament. My door is open, I'm reaching out. I welcome people coming to talk to me. This agreement right now is so important to Australia. The world is falling into two camps, Patricia. You're either in favour of free and fair trade or in favour of tariffs and protectionism. This Labor Government has nailed its colours to the mast. We are in favour of free and fair trade. We have to send a message to the rest of the world that Australia supports free and fair trade. Why is that so important? Well, it's because that's what our prosperity relies on Patricia. Last year, can I make this point, Patricia? Last year we did $1.37 trillion worth of trade, the highest figure in our history. Our continued prosperity for my children, for my grandchildren, depends on continuing with free and fair trade. And if, if there are countries out there who want to trade with us, we have to trade with them.
Host: So, now that the Coalition has been Hostile to this particular free trade agreement, are you opening the door with David Shoebridge to try to work on it? Because you need to get it through the Senate. You've only got those two options.
Minister: Well, I don't agree with you on the numbers.
Host: Where are the other options?
Minister: Well, Labor's got 30 votes in the Senate, we need 39 votes. So, I have to find nine sensible senators beyond the 30 that I've got. I'm discussing it with everybody and don't think for one moment, Patricia, that the Opposition is united in their position against this agreement.
Host: So. Right. So, I'm interested in what you have to say here. Are you hoping to peel off some senators here in the Coalition who are more free market, in favour of free markets?l
Minister: Patricia, I'm hopeful, perhaps even confident, that there are enough senators in the Australian Senate right now who understand just how important this, this agreement is for Australia to get through. So, I'm well confident that there are enough people in the Senate.
Host: Help me out here. Have you had conversations with Liberals who are small government free marketeers, who say they're prepared perhaps to cross the floor if this is a binding position of the Coalitions?
Minister: I've had conversations with as many people as I can to explain them the benefits of this agreement. Just to give you one example, Patricia, the agreement in the first year will deliver about $10 billion worth of new business to the Australian economy, but it very quickly moves to $30 billion because of our critical minerals aspect to this agreement. From day one, all of our critical minerals go into the European Union tariff free. Our competitors are paying a tariff. It's a no brainer, Patricia, for Australia to want to get its critical minerals into Europe. Last week I was in a place called in Arafura, Nolan's development there, just outside of Alice Springs. The Germans have invested $300 million in that investment. When that's up and running, all of the produce, all of the product, all the minerals that come out of that mine will go into Europe tariff free if we can get this agreement up.
Host: Ok, you recently returned from a trip to the United States where you made a controversial suggestion for superannuation funds to invest in US lamb in exchange for tariff relief. The Treasurer distanced himself from that. The superannuation industry came on my program. They said you cannot dictate to them. Did you speak out of line? Can you give me a sense of what you were doing there?
Minister: I don't think I spoke out of line and I think the comment that the Treasurer made was the appropriate comment that superannuation funds are obliged to, they've got a fiduciary duty to their members to get the best possible result for their, for their members. I was on the board of one of Australia's largest superannuation trusts for 15 years. The Rest Superannuation Trust. So, I was fully aware of what the obligations of superannuation funds are. But can I explain to you how the American system works with lamb. So, for every one lamb chop that an American eats, they eat 10 pork chops, they eat 50 beef patties and they eat 80 buffalo chicken wings. So, currently Australian lamb represents less than half of 1% of all protein that Americans eat. Now we're the largest supplier of lamb into the American market. It's worth about $1.5 billion to the Australian economy. All I've said is if you're a superannuation fund and you're looking to make investments in the United States, don't exclude lamb and beef from your consideration.
Host: Did you think there was evidence they were excluding it?
Minister: Well, I think there's an opportunity there right now to increase our share of the American market and to do it in, in, you know, with…
Host: [Interjection]
So, was it a helpful suggestion?
Minister: It was an extremely helpful suggestion and I've had positive responses from the industry. One fantastic South Australian company, Thomas Foods, has just built two new operations in the United States. It's a profitable business in the United States, but it can become even more profitable. My job as Trade Minister, Patricia, is to push companies out the door to get them to invest, sell more Australian lamb into, into the United States, make a profit for themselves. And if superannuation funds choose to, to join in, we'll make a profit for them too.
Host: Have you had any follow up discussions with your US counterpart Jamieson Greer?
Minister: Well, I met him last week before last and I had three conversations with him. We talk on now on a very regular basis. The conversations, the last couple of conversations have been perhaps less difficult than earlier conversations. I want a good relationship with the United States. The interesting fact here is that since so called Liberation Day last year, Patricia, our exports to the United States have gone up 67%. Now, we had expected our exports to go down. They've actually gone up. Why is that? Well, our three largest exports are gold, copper and beef. All of them still go into the United States tariff free, and other countries all pay a higher tariff than we do. So, just for the moment, we've got a competitive position in respect of those products. My job is to get the American government to lift the 12.5% tariff on the remaining products.
Host: And is there any movement there?
Minister: Well, I can't say that we have been successful so far, but, you know, I want to engage with the Americans. They're our closest military ally. They shouldn't be imposing these tariffs on us right now. And I'm going to keep working at it.
Host: Digital duty of care laws are going to be introduced this week. Back In September, the U.S. embassy, you'll know this, made a rare intervention into our political debate, calling the laws extraterritorial censorship of protected speech. Have you spoken about those laws or have they been raised with you, with your counterpart?
Minister: Yes, they've been raised with me every time I've met with the Americans. We obviously have a difference of opinion. We certainly don't believe if anything we are doing is contrary to our Free Trade Agreement. But it's the job of the Australian Government to protect Australian citizens. There's a lot of terrible stuff out there in social media. I've tried to explain to the Americans that our objective is to protect our citizens, particularly young people, and so far there hasn't been a direct response.
Host: Has there not been a threat of a consequence for these laws?
Minister: No, no, they have never raised.
Host: They've raised it with you. Is this Jamieson Greer?
Minister: Yes, Jamieson Greer.
Host: And he's actually raised the digital duty of care directly with you.
Minister: He's raised those issues, a range of issues in this social space. And each time I explain why we're doing this, and he certainly hasn't raised any issue. In a few minutes, I'm meeting the new American ambassador.
Host: You suspect it will be raised again?
Minister: Oh, he may or he may not, I don't know. But if he does, I will explain to him. As I've explained to Jamieson Greer, our job as an Australian Government is to protect our citizens. And this is one of the ways we're doing it.
Host: The Government is clearly not polling well at the moment. You've been around a long time, so you've seen ebbs and flows. But this seems perhaps different because the Parliament is becoming more complex. One Nation is on the rise. Yesterday, the Prime Minister tried to rally the troops. Obviously, he has a sense that people are feeling frustrated. Do you accept there are members of the Labor Caucus. I know your nickname in Labor is the Godfather. I'm onto you. So, you know, people come to you with their problems, particularly in the political right of your party, that are frustrated that business is unhappy with Labor, that there is an issue around trust.
Minister: Look, there's no doubt that things are difficult economically, particularly because of the events going on in the. In the Middle east right now. You know, governments, I mean, a government runs for three years, not everything runs smoothly for the whole of that three years. But I think the Treasurer, the Prime Minister are handling a difficult situation really, really well right now. I think they have the overwhelming support of the caucus. I was present when the Prime Minister spoke to the caucus earlier this week. I think he did a good job in explaining what the problems are and how we're going to go forward into the future. And I'm confident that under Anthony Albanese's leadership, we'll solve these problems, we'll get through this difficult time and we'll go on to win the next election.
Host: Don Farrell, I always love having you on the show. Thanks for coming on.
Minister: I love being here. Thank you, Patricia.