Sky AM Agenda with Kieran Gilbert

Subjects: Leadership, Gonski review, Queensland election.

Transcript, E&OE

21 February 2012

KIERAN GILBERT: With me on the program this morning on AM Agenda from our Sky News Centre in Sydney we’ve got the Deputy Opposition Leader in the Senate, Senator George Brandis. Good morning, Senator.

GEORGE BRANDIS: Morning, Kieran.

GILBERT: And here in the Canberra studio, the Trade Minister Craig Emerson. Mr Emerson, good to see you. Thanks for being here.

CRAIG EMERSON: Good to see you.

GILBERT: I want to ask you about, obviously, the Labor leadership; where things are at. What’s your sense? Your colleague — front bench colleague — Simon Crean says that the Foreign Minister has to ‘put up or shut up’. Do you agree with him on that?

EMERSON: Well, it continues to be the case that there’s a small group of Labor MPs that are destabilising a Labor government. That’s not in the interests of the Labor Government, and it’s not in the national interest. So something needs to be done to address that point. I know in your introduction you suggested that there was a petition being developed. It does need to be resolved. No one believes otherwise. How that comes about is a matter for the Prime Minister and also for Mr Rudd. But all Labor supporters and — I think fairly — all Australians expect this matter to be resolved.

GILBERT: When you say …you know, you refer to the petition …do you think that would be a good mechanism? Under Caucus rules, you need a third of Caucus to back it, don’t you?

EMERSON: That’s right. It’s not for me to advise those who are seeking to destabilise the Government on how best to do that. What I’m advising them is to back out and back the leader in the interests of the Party to which they have joined, and also in the national interest.

GILBERT: Well, your Cabinet colleague Bill Shorten last night was on the ABC. I want to play a little bit of that now for our viewers and we can catch up on that. Let’s see what he had to say.

BILL SHORTEN (CLIP): I have no doubt, I have no doubt that she will sort out the issues of leadership speculation, but she will do it at a time where she thinks it isn’t taking too much away from everything else that we’ve got to get done.

GILBERT: Unfortunately for Mr Shorten and the Government, though, it’s already happening, isn’t it: that this leadership speculation is already distracting, detracting from the reforms?

EMERSON: Well this is the whole point. It’s the whole point.

GILBERT: You saw though yesterday with the Gonski review …

EMERSON: This is the whole point that Bill Shorten’s been making; I’ve been making.  And that is that the Government is not, and will not, be distracted from formulating policies for the working men and women of Australia; from formulating policies to lock in a grand future for this country …

GILBERT: But the message is…

EMERSON: But exactly right. Seeking to do that is all very well and good, and we have implemented already very important reforms, and Prime Minister Gillard has navigated them through the Parliament. And that is an indication of her skills and her commitment to this country’s future. But seeking to explain that to the Australian people is very difficult and frustrating when I appear on a program such as this – I criticise you not one bit – because we have yesterday, as you indicated, a major reform in the education system. It got reasonable coverage, but it had to share the media coverage with leadership issues.

GILBERT: So, if the Government has largely uniformity when it comes to the policies, and you are delivering these things that you say you are, what’s this about then? Is it just about ego? Is it just about ambition?

EMERSON: I think it’s about ambition. I think it’s also in some cases about people anxious about their seats. That’s always going to be the case, and you and I have had a number of conversations about my time in the Hawke Government: there are always nervous backbenchers. And when you’ve got some with ambition, some of these backbenchers … in fact here’s a confession: everyone’s got ambition and there’s nothing wrong with that. But when that ambition is translated into a decision to destabilise the Labor Government, that’s not on, and it needs to stop.

GILBERT: So do you think the Prime Minister could sack Kevin Rudd? Would that be a show of strength, that she should do that?

EMERSON: Well it would just be wrong of me — and I think the question’s fair — but it would be wrong of me to start saying this is what the Prime Minister should or shouldn’t do. The Prime Minister will make her own decisions.

GILBERT: But when you say she needs to deal with it, would you say in the next week? It needs to be dealt with in days, doesn’t it?

EMERSON: I think there’s a fair point that’s been made by Anna Bligh. And that is that there’s a state election. She doesn’t want this to continue. She’s actually arguing that it be resolved. Who would disagree with that?

GILBERT: Senator Brandis, this remains a gift for the Coalition. There’s no doubt about it, hence the focus with Mr Emerson this morning. For you and for the Coalition, it just remains a political gift. But if they can get their act together and get the focus back on the policy agenda, who would you see as the bigger threat to the Coalition?

BRANDIS: Well look, Kieran, it’s really not for me to pick who the Labor Party should choose to lead themselves. You know, there’s an old saying that we’ve all heard many times and it’s true: if you can’t govern yourselves, you can’t govern the country. And that is undoubtedly what the Labor Party is displaying at the moment: a complete inability to govern themselves. Craig said a few moments ago to you that ‘we will not be distracted’. The problem is it’s obvious to everyone in the entire country that the Labor Party is entirely distracted because their senior Ministers — from the Prime Minister down to the most humble backbencher — are completely consumed by this. They have been consumed by it for weeks now, and there is no resolution in prospect. So the concern we have is that while the Labor Party is engaged in this orgy of political bloodlust and blood feud, nobody is running the country. Now if this Cabinet were a board of directors, a court would appoint an administrator. The deadlock has reached a situation of that much gravity. You can’t do that in a democracy, but what you can do is have an election and let the people sort it out. Now, I’ve got no expectation that Julia Gillard will call an election — but that’s what she ought to do because the public are absolutely fed up of the fact that nobody is running the show.

GILBERT: Bill Shorten was asked last night whether he, as one of Julia Gillard’s strongest backers and one of the architects of Kevin Rudd’s demise, whether or not he would work under Kevin Rudd in a Rudd Cabinet. This is what he had to say on the ABC:

BILL SHORTEN: I served as a Parliamentary Secretary when Kevin Rudd was Prime Minister. All of the Labor MPs I believe will work with each other in whatever capacity.

TONY JONES: Whoever is the Prime Minister?

BILL SHORTEN: Well, I believe that.

GILBERT: Well it sounds like Bill Shorten is being more pragmatic than others would suggest he would be; that he would be willing to serve a Rudd Prime Ministership.

EMERSON: I think the point that Bill is making is that this is hypothetical. I saw the rest of that interview. It’s hypothetical because Mr Rudd’s backers constitute a small group. A small group is well short of a majority. If you’re short of a majority, you don’t become the Leader of the Labor Party. That’s just the arithmetic truth. If I can just say about George’s comments, I think George is quite a learned man. He loves his politics and it is true that we’ve got a lot of politics going on here. But he said no policies are being made, no policies are being released. Where was George when the Gonski review was released yesterday? This is a fundamental reform of Australia’s education system to ensure that our kids can compete successfully in the Asian Region in this the Asian Century. But the Coalition is so disinterested in policy, and itself immersed in politics, that George didn’t even know the Gonski review had come out.

GILBERT: I’ll put that to Senator Brandis in a moment. But do you think there would be a large portion of ministers that would be willing to serve under Kevin Rudd? It sounds like Bill Shorten would be.

EMERSON: I’m simply indicating that a small group is a small group. It is well short, well short of a majority.

GILBERT: How much: 30?

EMERSON: I know that would be a wonderful story for you, for me to be starting to talk about numbers. I’m not going to do that. My preoccupation, the reason I’ve come into politics, is policy. But I can assure you this: it is a small group; it is not getting bigger. If anything, the small group is getting smaller. And we’ve actually had to witness Labor MPs ringing newspapers, time and time again, demanding that they be taken out of the column under Kevin Rudd’s name and put in the column under Julia Gillard’s name, only for the next newspaper or the next edition of that newspaper to put them back in. So when you see that sort of inflation going on, you do actually legitimately question these claims that those who are supporting a possible Kevin Rudd candidacy aren’t doing anything other than inflating the numbers and insisting on persuading newspaper journalists and editors to stick people under Kevin’s name who do not belong there, who repeatedly ring those newspapers and demand to be put under Julia Gillard’s name.

GILBERT: Senator Brandis, on the issue of just what the Government is able to deliver at a time when it’s got this leadership battle underway, there have been the reforms announced, like the Gonski review yesterday and last week’s legislative victories, like the means testing of the private health insurance rebates. So in terms of its agenda, despite the precarious nature of the Parliament and these ongoing battles within the Labor Party, they’re still delivering on some of those fronts.

BRANDIS: Well I don’t think they are. Let’s take it one at a time. First of all, Mr Gonski is not, the last time I checked, a member of the Labor Party Caucus. All the Government did yesterday was receive a report from an independent expert. And the Prime Minister said ‘there are some good ideas here, we’ll look at them’. You would hope that today the Prime Minister and the Education Minister are reading the Gonski report. But I bet they’re not. I bet the Prime Minister and other senior Ministers in the Government are on the …

EMERSON: Have you read it, George?

BRANDIS: I will be reading it … are on the telephone trying to shore up numbers for one of or the other of the respected sides. In relation …don’t talk to me about the private health insurance rebate: that was an open breach of a solemn promise, just like the promise of the carbon tax, just like the promise to Andrew Wilkie about poker machine reform. So … and may I also make this point please Kieran: it may well be that Craig is right when he says the Rudd camp does not have a majority — he would be in a better position to know than me — but what can’t be denied is whether Mr Rudd has 50 votes or 40 votes or 30 votes or whatever number of votes, the Government is deeply fractured. And that fracture extends right to the Cabinet. You have a Prime Minister and a former Prime Minister in a fight to the death for control of the Labor Party. That’s what’s going on here. And trying to trivialise or to say that it’s all a media beat-up …

EMERSON: I didn’t say that.

BRANDIS: … as you did two weeks ago. You said ‘George, this is all a media beat-up’.

EMERSON: I did not.

BRANDIS:    Well it wasn’t a media beat-up then and it’s not a media beat-up now. This Government is split to the core.

EMERSON: I wish, George, you would stop coming on this program and making statements that are completely untrue with a straight face. And I think that actually affects the standing of these interviews, when you come on to the program and say I said it’s all a media beat-up, there’s nothing behind this. I’ve said consistently it is not a media fabrication; there is exaggeration. That is what I have consistently said. You come on to the program and seek to verbal me, and I think that the viewers deserve better than that. But in the response that you just gave to Kieran, George, which was a question about policy, you very quickly got off policy, revealed that you had not read the Gonski review. Okay, I accept that. What about the executive summary? What about knowing something about it? What about Christopher Pyne on radio this morning saying extra support for disadvantaged kids is not a matter of social justice; that is, for kids with low socioeconomic status background it is not a matter of social justice. These are the defining differences between Labor and the Coalition …

BRANDIS: Craig…

EMERSON: Where Christopher Pyne says … well hold on, I’d be amazed if you actually interject on policy … but let me just make this final sentence. This is the difference: because Christopher Pyne knows some kids from disadvantaged backgrounds who have done well — and good on them — he says, therefore, there’s no need for extra funding for kids in schools who are from disadvantaged backgrounds.

GILBERT: Let’s get Senator Brandis to respond to that. Senator Brandis, your response.

BRANDIS: First of all, I’ll be spending a good part of today reading the Gonski report, and I bet no Minister in the Government will be. Secondly, what Mr Pyne pointed out this morning, and what does deeply trouble the Opposition, is that the Government’s very limited response to the Gonski report has been to say ‘well, funding for private schools will be maintained at current levels’. But when challenged to guarantee that that would include the indexation component they declined to give that assurance.

EMERSON: Completely false again, George.

BRANDIS: Declined to give that assurance.

EMERSON: Completely false again.

BRANDIS: So, if the indexation at current rates is not guaranteed then there will be a reduction in real terms of funding for private schools. So, can you clarify that, Craig? Can you guarantee that indexation at the current rate of indexation across the board for all private schools will be maintained?

EMERSON: We have said, and said yesterday and said today, that indexation will be a feature of the system.

BRANDIS: At the current level? No, no.

EMERSON: George, George...

BRANDIS: See, these are politicians’ weasel words. ‘Will be a feature of the system’ is a long way short of giving a guarantee that the current rate of indexation will be retained.

EMERSON: I know your political tactics, George. Your political tactics are this — and Christopher Pyne unveiled them yesterday to the surprise of absolutely nobody: what he wants to do is to create a characterisation that there’s a private school hit list, because they think that works for them …

GILBERT: But he’s asking is there a guarantee on indexation, and you haven’t given one yet.

EMERSON: And our response to that is that indexation will be a feature of this system.

GILBERT: Okay. And we’ve got to take a break. I’m sorry we’re going to break that conversation there. We’ll be right back. Stay with us.

GILBERT: This is AM Agenda. Thank you for your company this morning. With me here in the Canberra studio, the Trade Minister Craig Emerson and in the Sky News Centre we’ve got the Deputy Opposition Leader in the Senate, Senator Brandis. Senator, thanks for being here again. I wanted to ask you about the Queensland election. The numbers look very, very convincing for Campbell Newman. Tell me, I know the LNP wants to play the underdog but, really, it’s ridiculous isn’t it? They’re going to romp it in.

BRANDIS: Well, we’ll see. We’re not taking anything for granted. But I can tell you this Kieran: the people of Queensland are fed up to the back teeth with this Labor Government. There has been a Labor government in Queensland for all but two of the last 20 or more years. And there is a very strong move for change. Now that having been said, we do take nothing for granted. We have Mr Katter in the background. And the message we have for the people of Queensland is ‘if you want to change the government; if you want to get rid of this failed Labor Government that’s been there for way too long, the only way you can do that is to vote for the LNP’.

EMERSON: This is the wonderful LNP refrain: ‘elect us cause it’s our turn’.

BRANDIS: No, no. I didn’t say …

EMERSON: ‘We’ve put our hand up. We’ve only served for two out of 21 years, so it’s our turn.’

BRANDIS: The Labor Party has been in power for 20 years and …

EMERSON: Yeah, so it’s your turn.

BRANDIS: … all governments have a natural life span. No side of politics should be in power forever. All governments have a natural life span. And I think most people in Queensland — if you spent more time in Queensland you might be picking this up yourself Craig — feel that this Government is exhausted.

GILBERT: Well that’s certainly reflected in the opinion polls, isn’t it? Anna Bligh — her Government looks like it’s nearing its end.

EMERSON: I recall on this program on the night of the last election, the Saturday night, doing interviews with Sky, with Steven Ciobo. And we sat down on our bar stools getting ready for the change of government. Steve walked in and said ‘we’re going to sweep it all away from us on the Gold Coast; we’re going to win all these seats. All the polling’s good, all the feedback, the exit polls’ and all that. And I think they won one. So it’s over when the people have cast their ballots, and then we can talk about the result. But it is so presumptuous for anyone to say that this is going to be the result based on opinion polls. The people will cast their vote, but when they do …

GILBERT: But when you’re in office for 20 years … 22, 23 … it’s a long time.

EMERSON: I accept that that poses a particular challenge; there’s no doubt about that. But it doesn’t mean that there is a right on the part of the other Party to say ‘you’ve got to elect us because it’s our turn’.

BRANDIS: Nobody has said that, Craig.

EMERSON: Look at what Anna Bligh has done in south-east Queensland, just for a start. Wasn’t it that Campbell Newman thought that Bowen was above Cairns on the map of Queensland? He wouldn’t know anything about the area outside of south-east Queensland. But even in south-east Queensland, where he would present himself as being a candidate who knows about the area, the transport system under Anna Bligh has been fundamentally reshaped.

GILBERT: Well it needs to. There’s gridlocks, traffic gridlocks everywhere …

EMERSON: And if she had not anticipated the problems, we wouldn’t have had the duplication of the Gateway which now runs very, very smoothly. She has invested in roads. And on these sorts of programs, George Brandis has continually said ‘look at all the money they’re spending on infrastructure’. Well, that’s what should be spent: money on infrastructure.

GILBERT: I want to go to Senator Brandis. Senator, we’ve got about a minute left. Absolutely, you can finish the program for us.

BRANDIS: If I may correct that, I don’t think on a single occasion have I criticised a particular infrastructure project, but I have drawn attention to the fact that Queensland’s public debt is now more than $80 billion, and it’s all been racked up under this Labor Government. Because the Queensland Labor Government, like the Federal Labor government, like the former Victorian and New South Wales and Western Australian  Labor Governments, are absolutely addicted to debt and bad public sector management. Look at the Queensland health system if you want: the worse example of that. Kieran, as I said at the start, we take nothing for granted. We don’t say ‘it’s our turn’. But after 20 years of one side being in power, I think most people could understand that there is a bit of a mood for change in Queensland, and that this Government seems to be exhausted. Half their Ministers are in fact retiring at this election. And we will wait and see what happens on the 24th of March.

GILBERT: I’ve got to wrap it up. Craig Emerson, Senator Brandis, thanks for your time. That’s all for AM Agenda.

EMERSON: Thanks a lot, Kieran.

GILBERT: Thanks for your company. We’ll see you next time.

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