Radio National Breakfast with Fran Kelly

Subjects: Same-sex marriage, Newspoll, Australian economy, leadership.

Transcript, E&OE

13 February 2012

FRAN KELLY: Well, back to the gay marriage debate. Labor is divided over Stephen Jones' Private Member's Bill on same-sex marriage. It's not a clear factional divide, as the MP told us just a moment ago, but the fact is many members of the Right do oppose gay marriage, and they warn of a voter backlash in Labor heartland seats, especially in Queensland. Craig Emerson is Trade Minister and one of four Queenslanders in Julia Gillard's Cabinet. He's in our Parliament House studio, too. It's a busy studio this morning. Craig Emerson, welcome to Breakfast.

CRAIG EMERSON: Thank you, Fran.

KELLY: You don't support legalising same-sex marriage. Why not?

EMERSON: My view is that marriage is a union between a man and a woman. But I would actually take issue with the suggestion that Labor is divided. Labor has a conscience vote. There is a diversity of views within the Labor Party, just as there is a diversity of views on this issue within the broader community. The fact that we don't all have the same view does not mean that a political party is divided; we just do have a diversity of views, and I think that's fair enough.

KELLY: Stephen Jones made his pitch to any MP listening as he prepares to introduce his Private Member's Bill. And he says this is a matter of equality and human rights. Why don't you see this as a matter of equality?

EMERSON: I respect Stephen's view. I respect the views of those who believe that we should move to have gay marriage. And that's fine. I think this is a debate that's been carried on within the Labor Party, where ….

KELLY: Yes, but why don't you see it as in issue of equality?

EMERSON: … the different perspectives are respected. I just have an institutional view going back to the traditions of Australia and the traditions of marriage as set out in the Marriage Act, that marriage is a union between a man and a woman. I won't change that view, Fran, but nor do I seek to change the view of Stephen, who obviously holds that view very deeply. Nor do I seek to change the view of others who hold these views very deeply. But I think there's absolutely nothing wrong, and I suspect your listeners would agree, with people having different views on an issue.

KELLY: Sure, that's true. But the polls suggest that the majority view in the community is in support of changing the Marriage Act to allow same-sex marriage. As an MP and as a Party and as a parliament, isn't the Parliament bound to represent or reflect majority view?

EMERSON: I think that parliamentarians have a set of responsibilities. And one is to, on issues like that, reflect their conscience. And if we simply reflected majority view on each and every issue, I guess we'd be having a citizen-initiated referendum on each and every issue, and governments wouldn't run the country; a citizen-initiated referendum would.

KELLY: Sure, but it is a common retreat of politicians, too, when they feel like doing something that…

EMERSON: Fran, you would have heard me say, for example, about economic reforms: if you ask the Australian people what they think about economic reforms such as creating an open competitive economy they'll tell you they're against them. So what should a government do? Say 'we're against economic reform; we don't want two decades of recession-free economic growth'.

But getting back onto this subject: yes, there's a diversity of views within Labor; there is a diversity of views within the Coalition, too. And Mr Abbott actually promised the senior front benchers of the Coalition who are the moderates that he would allow a conscience vote. He actually rang them, and on the back of that Malcolm Turnbull publicly called for a conscience vote. Then in Shadow Cabinet Mr Abbott broke his promise to them and said that there would be no conscience vote. So you've got the moderates, who are absolutely livid about it; you've got Labor with a conscience vote; the Coalition have got no conscience vote. And they pride themselves in the capacity of Coalition MPs to follow their own views on the floor of the Parliament.

KELLY: Well, as we now know, backbench MPs will be allowed to follow their conscience along the floor of the Parliament. Tony Abbott is allowing anyone on the backbench to vote as they wish on this. Will that make a difference, do you think?

EMERSON: Well, that's grand of him. So why is he binding the front bench? Do they not have consciences? I mean, this is a guy who promised Joe Hockey, who promised Julie Bishop, who promised Christopher Pyne, who promised Malcolm Turnbull they would have a conscience vote, only to break that promise. And they are livid. Malcolm Turnbull would not have made a public call for a conscience vote if he had not been contacted personally by Mr Abbott and assured that there would be a conscience vote, only for Mr Abbott to break that promise in the Shadow Cabinet.

KELLY: So you're calling on Tony Abbott to allow conscience vote on this issue, even though you don't want this issue to become … you don't want same-sex marriage to become law. And a conscience vote on the other side of politics would give it its best chance of becoming one.

EMERSON: I'm simply saying that on the Labor side, as a matter of fact, there is a conscience vote. On the Coalition side they have always said that they are the Party of tolerance and diversity in views on all sorts of matters, not just this, and therefore people are free to vote as they wish. That is not the case on this occasion. It was the case when Mr Abbott rang the Shadow Cabinet ministers who are regarded as moderates and promised them a conscience vote, only to renege on that promise.

KELLY: What if this vote gets up? How would you feel? What do you think that would mean for Australia?

EMERSON: Well, I think what should happen is that there should be a debate and then we'll see what happens. And I'm not going to make …

KELLY: How would you feel, though?

EMERSON: I'm not going to make predictions. My view will remain the same, and then we will just deal with that situation if it were to arise, just as we would deal with the situation if the alternative would arise - and that is that the vote doesn't get up.

KELLY: Are you worried about the politics about this? Is that why you're so keen for Tony Abbott to also allow a conscience vote: because you're worried that if Labor pushes on this and it gets up you will be punished at the ballot box, particularly in Queensland?

EMERSON: I have no particular agenda in speaking of Mr Abbott and his … on the conscience vote, other than to point out his hypocrisy. Why would you ring Shadow Cabinet ministers - voluntarily - to tell them there'd be a conscience vote only to renege on it? That's the point I make. I'm not making a point on numbers in the Parliament. People will vote as they will on the Labor side, but they won't vote according to their views or their conscience on the Coalition side because Mr Abbott is prohibiting them.

KELLY: Are you worried there would be an electoral backlash against Labor?

EMERSON: Again, I think that's a matter for each MP to judge. My own view is that views that are held in the electorate on this in favour of gay marriage are one thing; those who hold the views against gay marriage tend to hold them fairly strongly. How that balance works out in each electorate, Fran, is up to the people and it's up to the local MPs.

KELLY: You're listening to RN Breakfast. Our guest this morning is Trade Minister Craig Emerson. Minister, the Prime Minister wants to shift the fight on to the economy. That's what she's been doing for the last few weeks. Today's Newspoll suggests that on that territory it's a dead loss for the Prime Minister, because when it comes to who is the better economic manager voters told Newspoll that Tony Abbott is far and away the better economic manager: 43 to 34.

EMERSON: We're happy to have the debate. That debate has been initiated by the Prime Minister. We had a week in Parliament when Mr Abbott was channelling Dirty Harry - said 'make my day' - and then for the rest of the week scurried away and embarked on a campaign of smear against the Prime Minister. They weren't interested in engaging in this debate, because they do know that they have fundamental problems which will become more evident as time goes on, those fundamental problems being a $70 billion hole in the Budget and confusion, a complete fog of confusion about when or if they would ever return the Budget to surplus. So we're happy to have those debates. You've got on the one side Labor with policies to develop a stronger economy and to share the benefits more fairly, including to working Australians, and on the other side, relentless negativity and a huge funding problem amounting to $70 billion, and a fog of confusion over if they would ever return the Budget to surplus.

KELLY: Minister, just finally: when there was the Labor leadership challenge you came on this program and supported Kevin Rudd and said you would support him in a vote. It didn't come to that. Now there's reports that Kevin Rudd is preparing to challenge and is telling journalists that if the Prime Minister has another political stumble he will challenge. Do you believe Kevin Rudd is planning to run for the leadership?

EMERSON: No I don't. And am aware of those reports, but I am also aware of Kevin Rudd's denial of the reports. There's very, very strong support behind the Prime Minister, who's a genuine reforming Prime Minister who wants the best for the Australian people; who wants the best for disadvantaged Australians through a better education system; who wants to share the benefits of strong economic growth more broadly. That's what we're doing; we've got a triple A-rated economy; triple A-rated by all three rating agencies - never achieved by the Coalition in government. So we're happy to have the big debates. We're happy to implement the important policies to make sure that that growth is strong and the benefits are fairly shared, for example, through the mining tax, so that it's not just people in the fast lane who benefit.

KELLY: So Labor should stick with Julia Gillard?

EMERSON: Labor should stick with Julia Gillard and stick with policy. That's what we do best, and that's what we're going to do.

KELLY: Minister, thank you very much for joining us.

EMERSON: Thanks a lot, Fran.

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