ABC 612 Mornings with Terri Begley

Subjects: CHOGM, trade, human rights, pokies reform, asylum-seekers, Queen’s visit.

Transcript, E&OE

26 October 2011

TERRI BEGLEY: Presidents, prime ministers, and pretty soon, even royalty are all filling up hotel rooms in Perth at the moment because it's almost time for CHOGM, the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, to be officially opened on Friday by the Queen.

Held every two years, it's where the 54 Commonwealth member states thrash out the issues they hope to reach collected agreement on. Why am I telling you this? Because it's from where Trade Minister Craig Emerson joins us for our Inside Canberra segment this morning.

And here in the studio with me is regular sparring partner, Senator George Brandis, the Deputy Opposition Leader in the Senate. And good morning to you both.

GEORGE BRANDIS: Morning Terri.

BEGLEY: Good morning…

CRAIG EMERSON: Hello Terri. And good morning to you, George.

BRANDIS: How are you, Craig?

EMERSON: Well it's early in Perth and …

BRANDIS: Very early in Perth.

EMERSON: … it's not its usual sunny, bright self. A bit cloudy, but I'm sure they welcome the rain.

BEGLEY: It's a pleasant way to get the segment off this morning.

EMERSON: Absolutely.

BEGLEY: Well you are in Perth…

EMERSON: There's going to be no weather tomorrow apparently. None at all.

BEGLEY: No. We heard that there's going to be a strike, yes. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

EMERSON: Yes, there won't be any weather.

BEGLEY: Now to CHOGM: to you first in Perth, Craig Emerson. What do you see will be the important matters for Australia later for discussion at these meetings to kick off from Friday?

EMERSON: We are using the forum of CHOGM to advance the cause of open trade. We've got a northern hemisphere that's very substantially in a period of very slow growth — hasn't fully recovered from the global recession. And the only realistic way of spurring growth is to encourage countries to open up their markets so that you get specialisation. Through that you get more jobs and more prosperity rather than squabbling over an existing amount of prosperity.

Or if protectionist sentiments do rule the day, then you could actually get a decline in overall global income.

So what we're advocating — and this is very typical of Australia — is that countries open their markets, especially to the least developed countries. And Prime Minister Gillard made clear that that's what Australia is doing. And we've sought commitments like that from other countries, because trade is usually better than aid for the poorest countries on earth.

BEGLEY: Senator Brandis, does the Coalition agree that Julia Gillard says free trade has failed and a new,  more realistic approach needs to be adopted? Do you agree with this?

BRANDIS: I don't think free trade has failed. I think there have been difficulties with the Doha Round. So I think it … this is by no means easy, of course, particularly given the recalcitrance of some of the European economies.

Credit where it's due: I think as Trade Minister, Craig has done a particularly good job in advancing this agenda. But I should also point out that some of the announcements Julia Gillard made yesterday, in particular opening Australia's markets without any tariffs or quotas to the less developed countries, was something that John Howard announced in 2005.

So, in fact, Julia Gillard is merely re-announcing what has been the … in place since the Howard Government introduced this policy eight years ago.

And, as well, I think that my side of politics has got the runs on the board. We had the free trade agreement with Singapore; the free trade agreement with Thailand; and the big one, the free trade agreement with the United States.

So far as I'm aware, there have been no new free trade agreements finalised during the course of this Government. Although, I do acknowledge that driven by Craig, the government is working towards free trade agreements, in particular with China.

BEGLEY: Another discussion topic that's come up in the last couple of days is the issue of human rights, and whether or not CHOGM is the right forum for Australia to bring up this with Sri Lanka. In some African countries, they're resisting greater human rights commitments by Commonwealth countries. Craig Emerson, is this the right forum for this? Should we be making…

BRANDIS: [Coughs]

BEGLEY: Excuse me Senator Brandis, I'll just turn your microphone off.

EMERSON: [Laughs]

BEGLEY: Should we …well, should we be making more progress on this at CHOGM this year?

EMERSON: I think Australia uses any reasonably available forum to advance the issue of human rights. Sometimes it's not wildly popular when we do that, but we feel that we do have an obligation to do so. And so that's why we are focusing on human rights, as well as on trade.

I just factually need to correct a couple of things that George said. This Government has in fact entered into a free trade agreement with all of the ASEAN countries — that's a very large number of countries — plus Chile. And we're working on Korea.

I've heard the Coalition falsely claim that we haven't done any of those. We did say that the policy that was implemented actually in 2003 is the policy that we are reaffirming and extending into the future. We made that clear. And we're asking other countries to make similar commitments to the poorest countries on Earth.

BEGLEY: Moving on from trade and from human rights issues, Senator Brandis: what else do you want to see CHOGM look at closely that is going to be of direct benefit obviously to us here in Australia?

BRANDIS: Well you say aside from trade and human rights, but I do think trade is the big one. And you know, there are other things that have been done over the years through CHOGM. For example, overseas students come to Australia, in some cases through programs auspiced with other Commonwealth nations. So that's another useful area of activity.

But you know, the fact that these nations which have, for all their differences, a common heritage and are ultimately derived from the Westminster system of government, can meet together every few years and exchange views and ideas and assist one another — particularly the developed world assisting the developing nations — I think it is a good thing. And I think the parties are united in their support for the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting.

That wasn't always the case, by the way. Paul Keating, when he was Prime Minister, was a very scathing critic of CHOGM, as he was a scathing critic of anything to do with Britain. But fortunately he has gone. He is now an anachronism.

BEGLEY: Moving on away from CHOGM, last night the Opposition Leader Tony Abbott predicted a Coalition Government will rescind any mandatory pre-commitment scheme brought in to reduce problem gambling.

How could he, Senator Brandis? Given even if the Coalition wins government in the next poll, the Greens support the reform in the Senate.

BRANDIS: Well I think it's pretty simple, Terri. And I think this issue will arise across a range of areas of difference between the parties, most particularly the carbon tax. But this is another one of them.

We will go to the next election with a series of policies. They will be positive policies, but some of those policies will also be promises to undo the harm done to Australia by this Government.

We think that the mandatory pre-commitment is a foolish policy. It is an overreach to interfere with the day-to-day rights of ordinary Australians to use pokies if they choose to, in order to address a problem that can be — that ought to be addressed, but in a much more intelligent and targeted way.

So there are certain things that this Government has done which we think are very harmful that we will undo. And we will — were we to be successful at the election — we will be saying to the Labor Party, ‘well, we went to the election promising to do this. The people backed us. Now we've got a mandate for this, so get out of our way’. And the ball will be in the Labor Party's court to decide whether or not it respects that mandate.

And you asked me about pre-commitment technology: that's an important issue to a lot of people, particularly people for whom clubs are an important place of recreation and who don't have a problem, as the vast majority don't.

But the big one of course is the carbon tax. I mean, we didn't get to have a vote on that at the last election because we were promised there wouldn't be one. The Coalition absolutely promises the Australian people they'll get to have a vote on the carbon tax at the next election. And if we win — if they support our opposition to it — we'll expect the Labor Party to respect that mandate.

BEGLEY: Craig Emerson?

EMERSON: Well, mandatory pre-commitment does not stop or deter ordinary everyday users of poker machines from doing so. They simply indicate an amount that they are prepared to lose, and that amount is not determined by any legislation but by the person who's playing the poker machine.

Now, I find it extraordinary for the Coalition to suggest that people won't use poker machines if they need to indicate what they are prepared to lose. This is a very big issue, and that is the issue of problem gambling. On average, $21,000 a year is lost by problem gamblers. And what we're saying is let's work with the clubs. I understand the ACT clubs are in discussions with the Government about trialling mandatory pre-commitment. So when people such as George and others say this won't work, why are they so scared of a trial which is designed to assess its effectiveness?

BRANDIS: You know what I find really perplexing about politics at the moment in this country, Terri? And I'm sure you're listeners …

EMERSON: Your negativity, George.

BRANDIS: … and I'm sure your listeners do too. What are the three big issues in Australian politics at the moment? The carbon tax, the Malaysia solution about asylum-seekers and there's poker machine reform. In every case the Labor Party is arguing for a position that is either, in the case of Malaysia and the carbon tax, the opposite of what they took to the last election or, in the case of poker machine reform, they were silent on at the last election.

BEGLEY: Can we move …

EMERSON: Completely false. We commissioned a Productivity Commission report. That report was available …

BRANDIS: Commissioning a Productivity Commission report doesn’t constitute a policy.

EMERSON: That report was available and we are looking at those issues raised in that Productivity Commission report. There is another issue: and that is the mining tax, which you're also opposed to George because Tony Abbott believes that mining companies are already paying too much tax. He has promised to rescind that as well, which means that small business tax breaks will disappear if Tony Abbott is elected. The company tax rate will go back up — no surprises there from a Liberal Government — and of course people will not be able to increase their superannuation from nine to 12 per cent. That is your policy.

BRANDIS: So much for negativity …

EMERSON: That's your policy exactly.

BRANDIS: And might I remind you, Craig…

EMERSON: You shouldn't promise to rescind it.

BRANDIS: … that I represent the party, the Liberal Party when we were last in government, which was responsible for the biggest reduction in company tax in Australian history.

BEGLEY: Okay, moving on …

EMERSON: And the highest share of taxes as a share of GDP in Australia's history; gold medal award-winning effort, George.

BEGLEY: You're listening to Inside Canberra with Craig Emerson and Senator George Brandis this morning. The topic of asylum-seekers came up through that exchange. The ABC's Four Cornersprogram this week documented the deteriorating mental health of detainees inside Australia's immigration detention centres. It looked at widespread levels of depression, psychosis, self harm among asylum-seekers.

Dr Emerson, the psychiatrist from the Immigration Department's own Detention Health Advisory Group in this documentary called for a 90-day limit on how long asylum-seekers are locked up, and that mental health patients should be looked after in hospitals, not left in detention centres. Is the Government looking at this?

EMERSON: We have actually dramatically reduced the amount of time taken to assess asylum-seekers, and we have removed Temporary Protection Visas, which means that asylum-seekers, even when they are successfully designated as refugees, never knew whether they were going to be able to stay in Australia with their families or not.

And, indeed, the so-called “Nauru solution”, or “Pacific solution”, involved detaining people for up to three years. And there were serious mental health problems there.

I think one of the challenges, Terri, is for that for those asylum-seekers whose cases are rejected and there is no agreement from the source country to take them back, then in a sense they are caught in limbo.

And we understand that's a problem. But we cannot and will not accept as refugees people who are not actually refugees.

The Australian people would expect that of us. And that's what we're doing.

BEGLEY: Senator Brandis, in the news headlines this morning, a Sri Lankan man has died at a Sydney immigration detention centre. Investigations are being done. It's thought that he has taken his own life. This is something that's starting to concern people …

BRANDIS: Sure.

BEGLEY: That what we're doing to people and how we're locking them up; and how long for; and what it is doing to their mental health.

BRANDIS: Well, I think that's right, Terri. It's a terrible human problem, but you've got to go back to the source and ask yourself why there are so many people in mandatory detention.

The reason there are so many people in mandatory detention is because three years ago the Labor Government, under Kevin Rudd, abandoned the successful policies of the Coalition Government, which had seen the number of boat arrivals reduced to an average of three a year over the previous six years.

The day Kevin Rudd became Prime Minister of Australia, there were four adults and no children in mandatory detention. Today there are about four and a half thousand, of whom about a thousand are children.

These are the consequences of this terrible policy that we warned against, and we were lectured by the Labor Party that we lacked compassion. Now we can now see what the consequences of that policy were.

And can I say, make one last remark: it's odd to hear Craig criticising the Nauru solution when the Nauru solution is the only solution that's ever worked and was the solution, as he well knows, that the Minister for Immigration Mr Bowen argued for in Cabinet last Thursday week, but was done over by Julia Gillard.

EMERSON: Now Terri, let me just respond on that very quickly…

BEGLEY: Can you make it brief, Craig Emerson? You're going to lose the line soon.

EMERSON: Of course I will. The Secretary of the Immigration Department, the same department that has advised the Howard Government, including George Brandis — has indicated that this so-called Nauru or Pacific solution would no longer work — does not work because the rate of resettlement of those who went to Nauru is extremely high. And people-smugglers know that and tell their clients that even if they were to go to Nauru, they'd end up in Australia.

That's the whole reason for looking at the Malaysian arrangement because, again, the same people advised that that would be effective in deterring people smugglers.

BRANDIS: Look, I understand …

BEGLEY: Okay, one very quick response Senator Brandis.

BRANDIS: I understand that Mr Metcalfe has said that. But it seems to me that given that we know Nauru has worked in the past, we should at least try it again. And that's the very point the Minister, Mr Bowen, made in Cabinet last Thursday week.

BEGLEY: Okay.

EMERSON: We sought your cooperation to try Malaysia, and you wouldn't give it. So let's …

BRANDIS: That's right, because Malaysia is not a party to the refugee convention…

EMERSON: … so let's understand who's responsible. Let's understand who's responsible for boat arrivals: and that is Tony Abbott, because he continually says “no, no, no, no and no’, and he'd rather see more boats arrive because he would profit from that.

BEGLEY: We're going backwards and forwards on this one.

Just a final quick question to you Craig Emerson. They're in Perth for CHOGM, as I mentioned, the Queen, to officially open proceedings on Friday. When we last spoke you were both looking forward to a little catch-up with the Queen in Canberra. Remember you both were actually going to take your daughters, perhaps, as guests to meet with her.

EMERSON: We did.

BEGLEY: Craig Emerson, you've got 10 seconds: how did it go?

EMERSON: It went very well. We talked about Jock the horse — Laura's horse. And I've got a photo of that, of course, but also of George's daughter with the Queen.

BEGLEY: Isn't that lovely, Senator Brandis?

BRANDIS: And that was very kind of you Craig to take a photograph of Phoebe being greeted by the Queen. That was a very kind gesture. And it was a wonderful experience, of course, for her.

BEGLEY: What a great memory for those two daughters of yours to take with them into adulthood. Again, thank you for your time Craig Emerson. You've got to go and no doubt be immersed in some meetings for the CHOGM forums. Thanks for your time.

EMERSON: Thanks Terri, thanks George.

BRANDIS: Thank you Craig, thanks Terri.

BEGLEY: Craig Emerson and Senator George Brandis. The Trade Minister and Senator George Brandis there on Inside Canberra this week, here on 612 ABC Brisbane. We'll catch up with them again and talk more politics in about a week's time.

Media enquiries