ABC News Breakfast

Subjects: Craig Thomson, political mood.

Transcript, E&OE

25 August 2011

TAMARA OUDYN: Craig Emerson is the Federal Trade Minister and he joins us now from Canberra. Craig Emerson, thanks so much for join us this morning.

CRAIG EMERSON: My pleasure.

OUDYN: How damaging is Kathy Jackson's comments about Craig Emerson, and her willingness for it to be pursued by police?

EMERSON: I think you mean Craig Thomson, but that's fine...

OUDYN: I beg your pardon.

EMERSON: The material that the Health Services Union has assembled, I understand from statements yesterday, is being passed over to the New South Wales Police. That's an appropriate course of action now that the decision that's been made by the union. And, of course, Senator George Brandis has sent material to the New South Wales Police. But what's disturbing is that Senator George Brandis saw fit before sending that material to ring his Liberal New South Wales Police Minister to tell him he was doing it and then the New South Wales Police Minister rang the Commissioner. We have absolute, total confidence and respect for the New South Wales Police Commissioner and the New South Wales Police more generally, but it is disturbing...

OUDYN: Kathy Jackson though did say that she was more concerned...

EMERSON: ... it is disturbing...

OUDYN: I am sorry to interrupt...

EMERSON: ... that Senator Brandis has decided to do this. He had a press conference earlier in the week. He answered lots of questions, but at no point did he say 'and of course I've rung the New South Wales Liberal Police Minister before sending this material to the Police Commissioner'.

Now, the separation of powers is very important in our democracy and we want to be sure that Senator Brandis understands that. It would be very unfortunate if there were any perceptions of political pressure being brought to bear on anyone in the judicial arm or the police arm. We know that the Police Commissioner will discharge his responsibilities in the normal professional way he does. But why did Senator Brandis do this? Why did he not mention it in a lengthy press conference?

OUDYN: My question, though, wasn't about Senator Brandis; it was about Kathy Jackson from the HSU. How damaging do you think her comments on Lateline last night were to Labor?

EMERSON: What I actually believe in and I know it's a quaint notion sometimes - particularly here in Parliament House when you're talking with Mr Abbott about integrity - is that I actually believe in the presumption of innocence. Maybe that's an old fashioned notion. And I think that Craig Thomson is entitled to the presumption of innocence. In fact, no criminal allegations have been made against him that I'm aware of. An assessment is being made and that may or may not lead to an investigation and yet ...

OUDYN: That's right, no charges have been laid and presumption of innocence is high...

EMERSON: Yeah exactly. Nor has an investigation been launched.

OUDYN: ... why shouldn't he have to explain himself?

EMERSON: I just want to make sure that people understand, an assessment is being made yet Mr Abbott in Parliament yesterday – when he came in – said 'an investigation is underway'. He knew that to be a false statement. So when we talk about integrity, Mr Abbott should display a little bit.

OUDYN: Tony Abbott also wants the Prime Minister to explain how much she knew about this case.

EMERSON: Well this matter is now the subject of an assessment by the New South Wales Police, which may or may not lead to an investigation. And if Mr Abbott wants to look at what is an appropriate response, he needs to look no further than the statement of Mr Howard when three of his MPs were actually subject to a police investigation. Mr Howard at that time said it is not appropriate to comment further; just let the matter take its course. And that was his position then - I think that's a reasonable position. And Mr Abbott obviously doesn't because he thinks it's appropriate that there be two standards: one for the Liberal Party and one for the Labor Party. We don't accept that.

OUDYN: After talking of her complete confidence in Mr Thomson, Julia Gillard has suddenly stopped doing that. And this morning Senator Stephen Conroy on a commercial station wouldn't state his full confidence. Does Craig Thomson have your full confidence?

EMERSON: Yes he does. Yes he does; he's a friend of mine and he has the presumption of innocence, he is a friend of mine and I stand by Craig Thomson. And I think people are entitled when allegations are made against them to the presumption of innocence and to the non-interference in the processes that are set in train.

But the real question this morning is why did George Brandis see fit to ring the New South Wales Liberal Police Minister before sending it to the Police Commissioner? We know that the New South Wales Premier Barry O'Farrell has already reached a final judgement on Mr Thomson, because he's already called for him to resign from the Parliament. So there's plenty of pre-judgement going on about this matter by senior Liberals, which are all obviously politically motivated pre-judgements.

What we say is let the justice system follow its course and not have Senator Brandis ringing the New South Wales Police Minister, who then saw it fit to ring the New South Wales Police Commissioner, in whom we have total trust and total confidence.

OUDYN: Surely the longer that Craig Thomson remains silent on this issue, though, the more damaging it is for the Labor Party.

EMERSON: Well, again, I go back to Mr Howard, who thought it was appropriate that these matters take their course through the assessment process, through any investigation if there happens to be one. And Mr Howard didn't see appropriate that the three sitting Liberal MPs who were actually the subject of a police investigation should stand up in Parliament and make statements.

Now Mr Howard … that was not very long ago; we're not talking about 20 or 30 years ago. And Mr Abbott admires Mr Howard, but he doesn't admire Mr Howard's standards. Why? Because he thinks this is a quick, sleazy way to get into The Lodge rather than doing important policy work and having the policy debates which he has sought to cut off. They didn't even think it was important to have Question Time; they wanted a division yesterday on this matter. And George Brandis on that said that was all about the carbon price. It was nothing to do with the carbon price; it was all about political manoeuvring and political posturing from an Opposition Leader who's too lazy to do the policy work, to plug his $70 billion budget black hole and to explain why he still believes that a tonne of carbon dioxide is weightless.

OUDYN: Craig Emerson, it's been reported in the Financial Review this morning that the feeling in Caucus is reminiscent of the dying days of Whitlam and Keating governments. Are you feeling that?

EMERSON: No, I'm not. And I'm amazed that Caucus members would report a feeling that was similar to that in the Whitlam Government, because that was 1975 and not one member of Caucus was around in 1975 so that's a curious story.

OUDYN: What's the mood that you're gauging from the electorate, though? I mean, the comments that have been coming into our Twitter and Facebook page this morning have been showing an increasing frustration with both sides of the argument.

EMERSON: Well I think that what the electorate wants is to see the Government get on with the policy work which we are doing: the plain packaging legislation for tobacco passed last night...

OUDYN: The overwhelming comment seems to be that they would like the Government to stop, and the Opposition to stop, acting like children.

CRAIG EMERSON: We would rather get on with the policy work. That's what we would rather do and we have been. An important piece of legislation passed last night. And thank you to the ABC for recognising that, because while this debate's going on it's often the case that the people don't realise that we are actually getting on with the job of putting the legislation through the Parliament, putting the big policies through and implementing them in the interests of the Australian people.

But of course the media - and I understand why - gets crowded out by these sorts of allegations and now we've got this issue with Senator Brandis. But the point I'm making is that we have got all our legislation through. We forced the Coalition into a humiliating back-down on attempts to breach the World Trade Organization ruling on apples. We're seeking to do the same thing on palm oil, which also would breach the rules. These are the debates that need to be had and Mr Abbott should be turning his attention to policy, and that is explaining how he's going to cut $70 billion to plug his great big Budget black hole. That's a policy debate.

OUDYN: Craig Emerson, we'll have to leave it there. Thanks for joining us this morning.

EMERSON: Thank you very much.

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