Sky News AM Agenda with David Lipson

Subjects: Newspoll, Peter Reith and Tony Abbott, live cattle.

Transcript, E&OE

28 June 2011

DAVID LIPSON: Let's get straight into our panel with Trade Minister Craig Emerson joining me here in Canberra. Good morning.

CRAIG EMERSON: G'day, David.

LIPSON: And Senator George Brandis, the Shadow Attorney-General, with us as well this morning. Good morning to you.

GEORGE BRANDIS: Morning, David.

LIPSON: First to you, Craig. I don't generally like starting these shows with the polls because as we always say …

EMERSON: Oh yes you do, yes you do [laughs].

LIPSON: …as we always say, polls come and go. But one of the ALP tactics at the last election was to remind voters that if they voted against Labor they would be installing Tony Abbott. He was seen to be unelectable, and that was seen as a tactic by the ALP: that if they raised that point then people would run back to Labor.

Clearly now, though, the tables have turned and things are looking pretty horrible in terms of preferred prime minister.

EMERSON: Oh, I wouldn't rate Mr Abbott as Mr Popularity. It's interesting, because I thought you just might ask about polls today, David. I had a look at the comparable time when John Howard as Prime Minister first announced the GST before it was implemented, and the Opposition Leader then, Kim Beazley, was well ahead of Mr Howard as preferred prime minister. I think Mr Abbott is ahead of Prime Minister Julia Gillard by one percentage point or two.

The point I'm making is that this is a tough time for Labor, of course. We're pressing on with a very important challenge, and that's the challenge of climate change, and not only an environmental reform but an economic reform. Often they're not popular.

I do note that when the GST was introduced, Mr Howard remained Prime Minister from that period of first announcing it for another nine years. So, if I were the Coalition, I wouldn't be counting too many chickens.

LIPSON: But you talk of the tough reforms. The mishandling of many of these reforms, if I could put it that way, means that they may end up being rolled back at the next election if Labor loses, if the situation becomes terminal. They may never get through.

EMERSON: Well, let's just see how we go with the carbon price and with the asylum swap with Malaysia, as we'll know well before any elections as to whether they get through. But you do make a relevant point, and that is Tony Abbott may undo all of it; he might undo some of it. We don't know because he actually wrote in an opinion piece not so long ago that even the firmest positions arrived at in opposition can be revisited in government.

So what he's really saying is, 'here's my get out of jail free card; whatever I say now, I reserve the right to do completely the opposite after the election'.

LIPSON: George Brandis, as we just heard there and from Martin O'Shannessy as well, this isn't really an indication that the … that Tony Abbott is being super popular, these polls, is it? He hasn't exactly surged ahead, and he still needs to at some point start to portray himself as more of a statesman, doesn't he, to get ahead?

BRANDIS: Well, I think anybody who saw Tony Abbott's speech to the Liberal Party Federal Council on Saturday saw a very statesmanlike performance indeed.

I think, David, frankly, what these polls show is that the public has stopped listening to Julia Gillard. And there's a reason for that because she has so obviously stopped listening to the public. The public have been saying loud and clear for months now that they don't want this carbon tax forced upon them, which will force up their cost of living. It's a commitment that Julia Gillard made to them before the election that there wouldn't be a carbon tax. She's gone back on her word. The public know it; they object to it; they don't want it; she won't listen, and so they've given up on her.

LIPSON: We also saw an Essential poll out yesterday that showed that not only would Labor leap ahead if it had Kevin Rudd in the big chair, but the Coalition would also get a bounce if Malcolm Turnbull was leader. Have we got the wrong leaders in place, George?

BRANDIS: Look, I think what we're seeing in these polls is that the Labor Party soap opera – and particularly citizens of New South Wales will be familiar with seeing a Labor Party in this kind of death spiral that they, they give. A year ago they stabbed one leader in the back and replaced that leader with another leader. The new leader turned out to be no good, so now they're scratching around thinking, 'well, do we stab our second leader in the back in a year and go to someone else?'

Now, you know, frankly, the Australian people expect more maturity and more stability of their government than, you know, this extraordinary Labor Party soap opera which they've been getting for the last couple of years.

LIPSON: Well, speaking of stabbing in the back, Peter Reith is …

EMERSON: [Interrupts, laughs] Good point.

LIPSON: … not too happy about losing the vote for the Liberal Party President against the incumbent, Alan Stockdale. In an opinion piece this morning, he said that he's sad that he lost and that he also doesn't understand why he lost. He's particularly upset that Tony Abbott, he says, encouraged him personally to apply for that president's job in the Liberal Party and then, as we now know, or at least expect, Tony Abbott voted against him.

And he's seen this as a real invitation to speak out on industrial relations, George Brandis, and he's done so this morning, saying that the Opposition Leader needs to go further in this important area of reform.

The Opposition, the Coalition really does have to start talking about this issue at some point, doesn't it? They can't hide away from WorkChoices forever?

BRANDIS: David, Mr Reith's perfectly entitled to his opinion. I read his article in the Fairfax papers this morning. The reality is that, you know, we had an open, democratic contest in the Liberal Party for an elected office in the organisation last Saturday, and Mr Stockdale, the incumbent President, was re-elected and Mr Reith lost. Now, that's what happened.

LIPSON: It was a bit of a clumsy thing for Tony Abbott to do though: to, in the full glare of the cameras, show his ballot paper to Alan Stockdale, wasn't it?

BRANDIS: Oh, I just think it was a courtesy. I mean, he was sitting beside Mr Stockdale. You know, we don't do these things in the dark of night the way the Labor Party does. And it's … you know, remember that this meeting of the Liberal Party Federal Council occurred one day after the first anniversary of what Kevin Rudd has called "assassination day". We have open, transparent ballots in full public view, in such public view that it was being broadcast live on Sky Television, David. And the Labor Party, when they decide to change leaders, that consists of the factional heavies going into the Prime Minister's office in the dark of night and stabbing him in the back, as happened last year.

LIPSON: Craig Emerson, on the call from Peter Reith to start talking about industrial relations reform: surely it is time for perhaps another sensible discussion about this without Labor crying "WorkChoices!" every time. What do you …

EMERSON: Well, that was the name of the legislation. It wasn't given to the legislation by us; it was given that name by Tony Abbott. And I was amused to hear George Brandis say that Mr Abbott put in a statesmanlike performance. I mean, he encouraged Peter Reith to run and then he voted for Alan Stockdale. This is the case of Tony Abbott, dirty double deals done dirt cheap. And that's what Mr Abbott did: a dirty double deal done dirt cheap, because he encouraged Mr Reith to run and then shafted him.

And Mr Reith himself complained about the showing of the ballots and said that was similar to the Labor Party. Now George says that showing of the ballot is the opposite to what the Labor Party does or doesn't do.

The main point here is that Mr Reith came to an agreement with Mr Abbott well before the ballot, and the agreement was that Mr Reith would not…

BRANDIS: Well, you don't know that, Craig.

EMERSON: It's in the papers.

BRANDIS: You don't know that.

EMERSON: I do, I do. I do, George.

BRANDIS: You don't know what passed between Mr Abbott and Mr Reith …

EMERSON: I do …

BRANDIS: … in a private conversation, so stop pretending that you do.

EMERSON: I do, I do. And you know why? You know why? I read the opinion piece, George. I read the opinion piece that you've read. And Mr Reith says in that opinion piece he came to a deal with Mr Abbott that Mr Reith would not talk openly about WorkChoices, and his opinion piece is all about WorkChoices because Tony Abbott did a dirty double deal done dirt cheap on Mr Reith, and now Mr Reith has said …

BRANDIS: Look, Craig, you're meant to be a cabinet …

EMERSON: … and now Mr Reith…

BRANDIS: Craig, you're meant to be a Cabinet Minister. Can't you do better than that?

EMERSON: … and now Mr Reith has exposed the fact that they actually got together and agreed that they wouldn't talk publicly about WorkChoices. The source of that information, George, is Peter Reith's opinion piece which you assert, obviously falsely, that you've read.

LIPSON: But Craig Emerson, Peter Reith left politics four years before WorkChoices came in. So why is Labor trying to link those two things together?

EMERSON: Oh, because of what happened on the wharves, you know: guard dogs, balaclavas, the whole catastrophe of Mr Reith's approach to industrial relations, which is absolutely confrontationist.

Mr Reith was pursuing exactly those policies; it's just that he didn't come up with the name "WorkChoices". That was Tony Abbott's.

LIPSON: Your response to that, George Brandis?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Can I just … yes please, David. Look, first of all, let's get this into a reasonable amount of context. The ballot for the federal presidency of the Liberal Party is something that is of interest to perhaps a few hundred Liberal Party activists and a couple of dozen journalists, and that's it. It's not an issue everyday Australians take a particular interest in. We had a ballot; there was a winner; there was a loser, and we move on.

Now, you know, I'm pleased Mr Stockdale was re-elected. I myself voted for Mr Stockdale because I thought Mr Stockdale had done a particularly good job, and the very strong showing of the Liberal Party at both state elections and at the federal level during the period of Mr Stockdale's presidency, I think is the ultimate … is the ultimate proof that the Liberal Party is in good shape. And I think Mr Stockdale deserves his part of the credit for that.

EMERSON: David, it's far more than a little internal party matter. It is a …

BRANDIS: That's all it is, Craig.

EMERSON: … test of character, and a test of character that Tony Abbot failed because he encouraged Mr Reith to run, he entered into an agreement that they wouldn't talk about WorkChoices, then he shafted Mr Reith.

LIPSON: Okay.

BRANDIS: Craig, who said this …

LIPSON: One…

BRANDIS: No, just quickly David. Who said this, Craig: there is more chance of me playing full forward for the Western Bulldogs than rolling Kevin Rudd for the leadership of the Labor Party?

It was Julia Gillard, two weeks before she stabbed him in the back. Just as six days before she stabbed the Australian people in the back, she promised there wouldn't be a carbon tax. So, let's not have a character argument from you people.

EMERSON: Oh no, Mr Abbott is just so reliable! He's the guy who says whatever he promises before an election, any position arrived at in opposition can be revisited in government. That's what he's saying about all of these policy matters: "I, Tony Abbott, might be telling the so called gospel truth now, but I've got this get of jail free card which I will use after the election to do as I please."

LIPSON: Okay, we've both had a good crack at that. We've got to go to a break. We'll be right back.

[Ad break]

LIPSON: Welcome back to the program.

Well, Julia Gillard heads to Darwin later today to take part in Community Cabinet tomorrow. She's sure to face some heat up there over the live cattle export suspension, with quite a backlash from the industry, from graziers and cattle transporters, and right across the board really.

The Government has announced compensation of between $214 and $313 a week for some of the farmers that have been affected by that.

But Craig Emerson, as Trade Minister, you're clearly pretty intimately involved with this process. We've seen the backlash in Australia from farmers. Has there been back … much of a backlash from Indonesia in terms of our trade relations?

EMERSON: Oh, it's true that Indonesia would prefer that there'd been no suspension at all, and we understand that. But I think in light of the images that were shown, there was no real alternative but to implement a suspension so that we could be sure that the cattle that were leaving Australia and then going into the feed lots and into the processing facilities were processed in accordance with international standards.

The Indonesians actually support those standards, but in some of the facilities they weren't being implemented. We're keen, and we are in fact working with the Indonesian authorities, to ensure that the standards that they want to see applied are. If we can assist in that, that's great. And the idea, if we can achieve this, is to re-open in a limited number of facilities, and provide whatever support that the Indonesians would like in relation to those other facilities over time.

So, if you like, a limited resumption. But I think that's the only model that could work. I know that Peter Dutton, the Shadow Health Minister, said only those facilities that were shown on 4 Corners should have been subject to a suspension. There was no way that anyone would have known or been assured that by doing that,alone, that the rest of the five … 600 hundred facilities were in fact at international standards.

LIPSON: George Brandis, do you agree with that? Is this the only…

BRANDIS: No, I don't at all.

LIPSON: … way to make sure that indeed the cattle trade will be ensured into the future. Because if there is another incident like we saw on that 4 Corners episode, surely that would almost shut down the industry, wouldn't it?

BRANDIS: Well, look, this has been, David, a policy fiasco from start to finish. Craig is completely wrong, and should as Trade Minister know better than to say that you can't identify …

EMERSON: Thank you, George, for that lecture.

BRANDIS: … that you can't identify the Indonesia abattoirs which are compliant with international standards. You can, and the Agriculture Minister, Senator Ludwig, told the Senate as much last week. So that statement from the Trade Minister is wrong.

EMERSON: You can't do it overnight, George.

BRANDIS: The, the … the fact is that the Government overreacted to this. What it should have done and what the Opposition supported it in doing is suspending the trade to the identified number of abattoirs that were not compliant; not shut down the entire trade overall, throwing thousands of people out of work and potentially exposing to risk one of the most important export industries in Northern Australia.

Now, the export licence … the export permits expire on Friday, and if this problem isn't sorted out by Friday – and there's no reason to believe that it will be – then it will be at least another three months before any Australian cattle will be able to be exported to the Indonesian market. And in that three months, because the export permits are quarterly permits, undoubtedly the Indonesians will find supply from other nations, particularly South American nations.

So the Government through – and the Minister who is completely lightweight, a complete lightweight on this issue – in a blundering way, have imperilled one of the most important export industries in Northern Australia.

Meanwhile, where is the Foreign Minister here? The Foreign Minister at the moment is in Equatorial Guinea on … and from Equatorial Guinea he's going to fly to Kazakhstan. Where he should be is in Jakarta trying to sort out the problem at the diplomatic level.

BRANDIS: Can I correct some false statements?

LIPSON: Just very quickly …

EMERSON: This is important for the industry. It's false statements by George Brandis, and that is that any non-renewal of the export permits on Friday, if that were to happen, if that were to happen, means that there will be no exports for three months. Irresponsible statement, George. Actually think about the national interest here for a moment. Irresponsible statement. It does not mean that at all.

BRANDIS: That's the case, that is the case. The permits …

EMERSON: It does not mean that at all.

BRANDIS: … the quarterly permits, and if they're not renewed on Friday…

EMERSON: Can I finish now, George, please? I think it's important. I think it's actually important that I finish this.

BRANDIS: …the industry will not be able to export to Indonesia for three months.

EMERSON: George, I think it's … that is, that is…

LIPSON: Just very quickly. We've got 30 seconds left, just…

EMERSON: … that is a false statement, and let me finish with this. You say that the Coalition is opposed to a full suspension of live exports. What did the Coalition do in relation to live sheep exports to Egypt? A full suspension.

LIPSON: Okay, sadly…

EMERSON: A full suspension.

BRANDIS: I don't think people whose livelihoods are being imperilled will get any comfort from that comparison, Craig.

EMERSON: You just said you're completely opposed to full suspension – so completely unnecessary, yet you implemented it. You implemented it, George, and you know you did.

LIPSON: Ding, ding, we're out of time. Thank you both very much for joining us, Craig Emerson and George Brandis, and thanks very much for your company on AM Agenda.

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