ABC 612 Mornings with Madonna King

Subjects: Immigration, multiculturalism, 2011 Parliament

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

1 December 2010

KING: Just looking at multiculturalism and the impact on our city and how it's changed our suburbs – from the restaurants we frequent to the fashion we wear to the music we listen to. And then we're going to go to the politicians.

Each Wednesday we go Inside Canberra and this morning Steven Ciobo, the MP for Moncrieff, standing in for Senator George Brandis. Good morning.

CIOBO: Good morning, Madonna.

KING: And Dr Craig Emerson, MP for Rankin and the Trade Minister in Julia Gillard's Government. Good morning.

EMERSON: Hello to you, Madonna and to you, Steve.

CIOBO: Good morning.

KING: And if you have a question from the audience, I haven't put this to you – I was going to say blokes – gentlemen, but if there is a question in the audience you don't mind answering it this morning?

EMERSON: I'll certainly try.

CIOBO: Likewise Madonna, I'll be very happy to.

KING: All right. Well let's just start because you can't have a discussion about multiculturalism without having a discussion about immigration and immigration levels. And given the theme of today, can I ask you both, do you think some of these wonderful people might not have made it to our shores under the policies both parties are talking about now?

EMERSON: Gee, that's a very hard one to answer at the outset. I think that over the period of the previous government, the boast was that they stopped the boats. The perspective that I'd like to bring on that Madonna is that even over that period and in par … and indeed over 35 years, the total number of people who arrived in Australia by boat was about 25,000, which would be a fairly modest crowd at a rugby or rugby union semi-final match.

So the idea that there's this armada or invasion is wrong. But I think that, of course, this is a country that has been built on immigration. I suspect that we'd have a population around maybe 10 million people, just at a guess, if we had no immigrants. And in fact, if we had no immigrants, we wouldn't have anyone here beyond the first Australians, the Indigenous people.

KING: That's very interesting to say that the ... the estimate of our population, what is it? About 20 million now?

EMERSON: Twenty-two million now.

KING: Twenty-two million and without immigration it would be something like 10 million?

EMERSON: Yeah. Look, don't hold me to the number but it would be much, much smaller than it is now.

KING: All right Steven Ciobo, can I just go a step further with that question and ask you, is there a bit of an anti-immigrant feeling in the community do you think?

CIOBO: Well I think that it's varied – like anything, Madonna. You know, there's no doubt that in some respects there's elements of the community that do have those feelings. But I've got to say I'm not actually detecting it as an anti-immigrant feeling. As someone with a surname like I do, with Ciobo, it's not exactly you know, a traditional English name. You sort of meet a wide cross section of people and of course from time to time you tap on elements that I would consider to be a little ugly in terms of their attitudes. But…

KING: Is that what we're seeing though now? A bit of a populist…

CIOBO: Well no. What I actually think is going on is what I would summarise as being a discussion about values and I think that it's really those values that underscores a lot of the angst that some elements of the community have because there's no doubt that there are a number of Australians who say, ‘look we have specific Australian values and we would like our immigrants – that is people who choose to come to Australia – to share the values that we have’.

KING: Is that a fair point Craig Emerson?

EMERSON: It is but it's always been so. I grew up in a small country town and it was not unusual that in our town, Baradine, the café was run by Pop Pantis. He was Greek. And Steve Anna ran the other café. So they were both Greek and that was very, very common. There was a wave of post-war immigration including to country areas from the Mediterranean countries, Greek and Italian.

KING: Oh and if you…

EMERSON: And down comes the rain.

KING: And can you just get…

EMERSON: Subsequently Madonna, people started arriving from Turkey, the Middle East, then Malcolm Fraser's period a lot of people did arrive from Vietnam after the Vietnam War and each time it has created the same debate that Steve has talked about. And he's right where people say, ‘hold on, but we're Australian, we want you to embrace Australian values’.

KING: All right, I want to ... I want to ask you, what does being Australian mean? But if you can hear that beautiful rain in the background, it's just started to pour down. Can everyone here still hear us clearly? And I guess there's nothing more Brisbane or Queensland than that beautiful sound of rain on a rooftop is there?

EMERSON: No, and apparently it's the wettest spring on record. So it's all very welcome. The dams are overtopping and the grass is green and we're pretty happy about that.

CIOBO: Madonna, I was originally concerned because when Craig started speaking everyone in the front row got up and started walking away. And I thought, ‘gee you've turned the crowd off very quickly Craig’. But it's just the rain. So that's…

EMERSON: They got washed away.

KING: We're going to come back to what being Australian means in just a moment. But when someone arrives on our shores, Steve Ciobo is talking about values, to both of you, what are the values that you want to see in someone who wants to call Australia home?

EMERSON: I do think that it's legitimate for people who are already here regardless of where they've come from to expect those who arrive to call themselves Australian. And in fact, if you like, not bring the troubles that they may have experienced internally in other countries to our country.

KING: You mean the conflicts?

EMERSON: The conflicts. And look, I know that they can be agonising for people but I think it's fair enough for Australians to say, ‘well you've now made Australia your home’. I am very, very strong on Australian citizenship. I think we should encourage people to become citizens in this country, not make it hard for them to become citizens in the country because that is a pledge of allegiance to this country.

CIOBO: And Madonna, I would add two additional points which is that I think that the commitment that I'd be looking for, and I believe that many of my colleagues would be looking for, is a commitment to secular government. A belief that, you know, here in Australia we have government that sits aside and separately to the church. Whatever your religion might be, I think that's got to be an underpinning of Australian values. And in addition to that, a commitment to democracy and to equality before the law – and that applies, you know, irrespective of gender, irrespective of a number of different approaches that other countries may have internationally.

KING: That's the voice of Steven Ciobo with Dr Craig Emerson here this morning as we go Inside Canberra at Cascade Court at QPAC. And if you want to look at the different foods, the costumes that are on display here, you can just go to our Facebook page at 612 ABC Brisbane. Just before we move onto multiculturalism, Steve Ciobo, the Opposition keeps counting boats. Should there be more emphasis – and I'll ask both of you this – on people overstaying their visas, people arriving by plane than asylum seekers arriving by boat?

CIOBO: You Madonna, I think this is a very interesting public policy discussion. And the reason I say it's interesting is because what is not the smallest but one of the smaller categories of immigrants into Australia is of course those that come, what we would say illegally, that is they don't have a visa to come into Australia and obviously the focus of that is on boats.

Can I say as a Liberal and as someone who supports our policies in this area, often they characterise us as lacking compassion. I'm often characterised as lacking compassion. Can I say to you truthfully that that is not what this is about for me. I truly believe that if we allow that system to flourish, if we allow people to pay people smugglers and achieve a migration outcome, that actually is less compassionate in my view. Because those people that are sitting in refugee camps and humanitarian camps who are applying to get access to Australia through the UNHCR program, they're effectively denied the opportunity to take a space because a lot of these places are going to those who have paid people smugglers. So for me, as much as it is often characterised in glib media comments and characterised in sort of 10 second grabs on TV or radio about lacking compassion because of our policies, I honestly believe that our policies are more about a level playing field. More about equality for those who can't afford to pay than it is anything else.

EMERSON: And just when you thought Labor and Liberal wouldn't agree on anything in relation to asylum seekers, I agree. The ... we shouldn't be down on asylum seekers for seeking a better life in Australia or in any other country. We should be down on people smugglers because people smugglers make money out of it. They also put at risk those very same asylum seekers and there's been a number of terribly tragic accidents on the seas where men, women and children have perished and so I agree with Steve..It's to attack the incentives for people smuggling and if we could get to an agreement on how best to do that a lot of the divisiveness would go out of the debate. But I also agree with Steve. I do assert that on occasions some Liberals do go too far in talking about ‘they're here’ and you know, as kind of an inference that they're bad people.

KING: Some of your own do that too.

EMERSON: I don't know that our people do. But anyway, whether that's right or wrong, certainly sections of the media do create this fear that there is this some sort swarthy influence permeating Australia and Tony Abbott has talked about an invasion, or at least an armada of boats. Now I agree that we should do what we can to cut down and abolish these incentives for people smuggling but let's not blame people for seeking a better life in this country or any other country.

KING: It's 17 minutes to 10 here on 612 ABC Brisbane. Can I ask you both what the word ‘multiculturalism’ means? When you hear that word what's its definition?

CIOBO: Well I mean I interpret multiculturalism as being a plurality of cultures obviously. And I think that's also one of the reasons why that historically has been slightly controversial because there is the view that Australia has one culture among some. Look, Australia's culture is fairly hybrid. You know, it's a blend of sort of ... obviously our English and Irish ancestry. It's a blend of Indigenous culture. It's a blend of those that came with the wave of migration following the Second World War from parts of Europe, the Italians, the Greeks and so on and so forth.

KING: And so do you agree with that definition pretty much?

EMERSON: No, not exactly. I was a staffer for Bob Hawke and I don't know if that term was originally phrased during the period of the Hawke Government but I know exactly what it meant at that time, and it was that when people come to Australia they should embrace Australia values but they are not expected to completely repudiate their own cultures. So there could be multiple cultures but a commitment to Australia. And that is…

KING: So we're not one big melting pot?

EMERSON: Well no, it's different from the notion of assimilation which is more like abandon your traditions, abandon your dress, abandon everything that you grew up with as a migrant and become an Aussie and eat fish and chips. That's not what multiculturalism is meant to be.

KING: So how far do you think migrants should go, and how much is the onus on them to assimilate?

EMERSON: Look, I think there's a generational issue here and if we understood this better I think the level of tolerance would be greater. It's very difficult for example with the people who came from Vietnam by boat, to immediately spread out right across Australia, right through a city, when they didn't speak English, when they were scared, when it was a new country. Of course the first generation of Vietnamese people would move to suburbs where they saw each other and could contact each other by foot. The second and third generations then start moving out. And if we understood that that is not unusual and it has been the pattern of migrant settlement in Australia for many years – that it's a generational thing and you can't expect people to lob into a place and spread out and not see their fellow countrymen and women.

KING: In just a moment ... what does that mean though, in terms of assimilation? Does it mean speaking English? What does it mean in terms of dress? That's what we'll do next here on 612 ABC Brisbane. I'm with Steven Ciobo and Dr Craig Emerson. My name is Madonna King and you're on 612 ABC Brisbane.

KING: It's now 14 minutes to 10 and thanks for your company this morning. We're Inside Canberra here at Cascade Court at QPAC this morning. My guests – Dr Craig Emerson and Steven Ciobo – and we're talking about assimilation and what onus is on migrants to assimilate into our community. And very briefly Craig Emerson, what do you think a migrant needs to do to be accepted as part of Australia?

EMERSON: Learning English as quickly as possible is a huge asset. And can I say Madonna, that the younger migrants who come to Australia and certainly to Logan City, the first thing they want to do is learn English because they want to get a job.

KING: Steven Ciobo, do you think they should be required to learn English?

CIOBO: I think what people are looking for is a commitment, Madonna. I mean, to pick up on the points that Craig made earlier, like anything it's a two-way street. You know, the concerns that people have in the community need to be heard and in the same way the genuine challenges that migrants face need to be heard as well.

KING: And would the genuine concern in the street is that people…

CIOBO: Well it's a little like – sorry, not to cut you off, but it's a little like Craig made the comment before, and I think you're being fiercely partisan Craig, but he made the comment about, you know, some Liberals go overboard. Well, look, on that side of the coin, perhaps some do. But on the flip side of that coin, there's also those that I think put such a ... what I would phrase as political correctness to concerns that people raise, that it almost requires a pressure valve to release the built up. And I think you've seen some of that occur in Australia in the past, and that's where I say it's really a two-way street. You need both…

EMERSON: I agree with that.

CIOBO: ...an open dialogue, where people can feel they can raise concerns, have them heard, and have them discussed. So when it comes to English, for example, I think that what Australians want is not for people to speak perfect English, not even necessarily that they have to speak English when they come to Australia, but a commitment to trying to learn our national language.

KING: What about clothing then, when you talk about that kind of understanding tolerance in the community? We've seen this as a debate. It's been a debate in Europe, it's been a debate across the world.

CIOBO: Well, you go into the Valley on a Friday night and you'll see a wide range of clothing down there.

KING: At the other end of the spectrum.

CIOBO: So, you know, I, for me ... look, personally, for me, that's less of a concern. I mean obviously there's questions there about, my guess, what you're going to are some of the controversial aspects like the burqa.

KING: Yeah, the burqa and the hijab.

CIOBO: Sure.

KING: You know, should it be removed before you go into a bank? Is it acceptable as part of that person's culture? Where do you draw the line between what's right and what's wrong, because some countries have come down this way and some countries...

CIOBO: Absolutely. And it's hard to delineate, I think, some of these issues because concurrent with them is also what are the values that underscore that? You know, there's a general perception that a burqa is tied also to oppression of females. I'm not saying it's correct, I'm saying that's a widely held perception.

KING: And a perception held by Western society.

CIOBO: No doubt, no doubt. And that's why I'm saying you can't sort of just divide the two polls into black and white. They are a lot more complex than that.

KING: But do you have a view there?

CIOBO: Look, I think that in my view, in an Australian context, I personally would have the view that you need to adopt a more Australian style. So, in my view, someone in a burqa, for example, should not expect that there would be widespread community acceptance of that. Even in a pluralistic society like Australia, because I still think that there is, underscoring that, a view that that is so different as to be confronting.

EMERSON: And could I pick up Steve's earlier point. He's right. People who are anxious about immigration, asylum seekers and so on, are not ... that doesn't mean they're bad people. And Julia Gillard has made this point. When people from the left of the political spectrum – I'm not saying particularly the left of the Labor Party – have said, well, they're racist if they say anything about people arriving by boat. They're not racist. They are entitled to their view and it's a point that Julia has made. And we understand about anxieties. Picking up on the general issue of dress, have a look at the people here. I mean at the functions in Logan City you rarely see anything more gorgeous than the women and the men and the little girls in their traditional African dress and the little boys – they bring a tear to your eyes. And, you know, if I could dress like that regularly, I think people would say, ‘well, you're a bit unusual, but you're very well dressed there mate’.

KING: Well, why no little African dress?

EMERSON: Yeah, a little African dress. We don't need to go into my night-time habits any further Madonna.

KING: No we certainly don't. And I see the State Minister for Multiculturism, Annastacia Palaszczuk, has arrived and I understand she has a red sari. She doesn't have it on, but she's not listening. We might get her to put it on a little bit later and see how that goes. You mentioned your electorate. In your electorate, how multicultural is your electorate? Do you have a favourite restaurant, ‘ABC no-names’ – but is it Vietnamese, is it Chinese, give us a flavour of both your electorates. Steven Ciobo, the electorate of Moncrieff?

CIOBO: My electorate based on the Gold Coast, of course. The Gold Coast is a very new city as you know Madonna. It's growing rapidly and, of course, with that growth a large proportion of it has been fuelled by those that have come from other countries. About 40 per cent of Gold Coasters have been born elsewhere. So that's almost, you know, one in two basically. About 20 per cent of my electorate speak a language other than English at home, so you'll get a combination of languages. And I don't think that that's unique to the Gold Coast. That's pretty common across Australia.

KING: Excuse my ignorance, ‘Ciobo’?

CIOBO: Italian

KING: Italian, of course it is.

CIOBO: Italian background, yeah.

KING: How many generations back?

CIOBO: So, my father came out at the end of the Second World War with the wave of migrants from predominantly Greece and Italy then. And, you know, and here we are another generation in and I've been fortunate enough to get into the nation's Parliament.

KING: And you were born here?

CIOBO: Yeah, born in Australia and mum's an Australian and, you know, my mother's mother and father are English. So, you know, it's that hybrid that exists across the country.

KING: Craig Emerson?

EMERSON: I'm very multicultural. My mum was Welsh. The electorate of Rankin covers much of Logan City. Logan City is the most multicultural place in Australia. Not in terms of the proportion of the population that was born overseas, but the diversity, the number of different homelands that are represented in Logan City. And if you go to Woodridge State School, there is a sea of colour, and I say that in the most wonderful way, and the way that those kids get on. And they are blind to the colour of each other. It's just, if you could get that, that's the melting pot. If you could get that essence and apply it around Australia, we would have a very harmonious country.

KING: You just said they’re blind to the colour of the person next to them. Do you remember the first time you met someone who wasn't Anglo Saxon?

EMERSON: It would probably be Pop Pantis back in Baradine. But I'll tell a quick story about our son who's now just about to turn 18. When he was first going to school he talked about his new friend and we asked what his new friend looked like and he said, ‘oh, he's got black hair’. And we asked a bit more and he says, ‘he's about this tall’. And then finally we went to meet his new friend at his parents’ place. He's a Vietnamese boy. And Tom didn't see that. He just saw that this is the features of his friend that he was describing to his mum and dad. And that was a source of great pride to us. But I think it's just what is going on amongst young people in this country.

KING: Steven Ciobo, the first time you met someone who wasn't…

CIOBO: Oh Madonna, I grew up in Far North Queensland, a little country town west of Cairns. So, you know, from year one onwards – well, actually from primary school – sorry, from pre-school, we had Thursday Islanders and Aboriginal Australians that were in the class. So I think it's perhaps a little different too, coming from a family whose father's Italian. And so I also grew up with aunties and uncles speaking Italian and those types of things. So maybe it's less confronting for me, I'm not sure. Maybe I'm just more used to it but it’s not an uncommon thing I think across Australia, that’s for sure.

KING: And it's interesting what you say, because it reminds me of a time last year where we were at church and my five-year-old and then four-year-old were in church. And you know what, kindergartens nowadays, they've got to have one of everything, so there's a male doll and a female doll, a black doll and a white doll. They've got everything to be politically correct. And my five-year-old, I realised, had never seen someone from Africa. Because we're in church, behind this beautifully dressed Sudanese woman, and thank goodness she had a sense of humour. And my daughter turned around and started screaming, ‘mum, there's a doll behind us. There's a singing, living, singing doll behind us’. And she had just seen what she'd seen at kindergarten and thought this woman was a live doll. And the woman just couldn't contain herself with the laughter. She thought it was hilarious. But I thought then, my children have not had that opportunity and they will, I guess, as they get older.

EMERSON: I think there's a perception that Queensland, in particular, is an Anglo Saxon community. And that is a perception held by people in the southern states. If they come here they realise it's quite different.

KING: All right. Just before I let you go, can you tell us ... we've had a big year. There's been a Federal election. We've got a whole make-up of a new Parliament. If you're looking into the crystal ball of 2011 in terms of politics, what's something that you predict we will see? Craig Emerson?

EMERSON: Oh, look, I think that there will be a lot more argument in the Chamber. That's a good thing I think in terms of overall policy. People in the community get upset about the tempers that fray in the Chamber. I do hope that Steven prevails in the Coalition side, because Steven is in the policy faction of the Liberal Party, a very small one, but I hope it grows over time. And Tony Abbott has actually said, ‘maybe we need to develop a few policies’.

KING: It was going to be without politics wasn't it, Steven Ciobo?

EMERSON: Missed it by that much.

CIOBO: You know Madonna, I'd like to applaud Craig's effort, but he just had to take that partisan shot. But, you know, I would predict next year it's going to be interesting, Madonna, because we've still got the reality of the Parliament which is that we've got a hung Parliament. We've got a minority Government, so that's going to require a lot of compromise. So I think it will be interesting to see the way in which policy debates evolve over time. But Madonna, quickly before we wrap up, I bought, in the spirit of Christmas, a little Christmas gift for you.

KING: For me?

CIOBO: And that's just a couple of treats that you might enjoy. And more importantly for Craig, and just to return the one little volley, I bought for Craig a Christmas gift of a compass so I thought it might help them find their way.

EMERSON: I hope it's not a moral compass because I've got one of those.

CIOBO: Thanks Madonna.

KING: And Dr Emerson, have you got a present for me?

EMERSON: Yes, next Easter. Remember I gave you Easter eggs last time? And George criticised me because they weren't from Australia, so I've learned my lesson.

KING: Look, can I wish you both a very happy Christmas. I look forward to going Inside Canberra again next year. And the one thing I really enjoy about my program is you can ask the hard questions, we can have an argument and at the end of it everyone goes away knowing everyone else is just doing their job. Dr Craig Emerson, Steven Ciobo, thank you.

CIOBO: Thanks Madonna.

EMERSON: Thank you Madonna and have a lovely Christmas.

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