ABC 612 Mornings with Madonna King

Subjects: NBN; Afghanistan; Mary MacKillop; Twitter

Transcript, E&OE

13 October 2010

KING: Now, the full debate on Afghanistan is set down for the next sitting fortnight. That will be interesting because of the developing differences between the parties on our international commitment, from the numbers in our forces sent there to this escalating argument over the three Australian soldiers facing charges in Afghanistan. But that's not the only issue today: NBN, whether businesses should be able to use the name of Australia's first Catholic saint. That's after Australian businesses have written to the Pope saying they should be able to use a connection to Mother Mary without ministerial approval. Then of course there's the normal argy-bargy over perks, politics and political rhetoric. Let's go inside Canberra. Dr Craig Emerson, Trade Minister, good morning.

EMERSON: Good morning, Madonna - with a little cold.

KING: A little cold. Well, just no kissing and we'll be fine. And Senator George Brandis - no kissing from you either. Opposition legal affairs spokesman, welcome to 612 ABC Brisbane.

BRANDIS: Good morning, Madonna.

KING: Look, I was going to start with NBN and we'll do that in just a moment. But we've been talking for the last hour on whether we still care enough in the community to stop. And we're not passing judgment here because all of us have been in the situation, and you look at the research and less than 50 per cent of us would - would intervene if faced with a case of a child saying they were being sexually assaulted, to regular bruising on a child's face. Why is this? George Brandis.

BRANDIS: I don't know. I think perhaps it's because, paradoxically, although society is sort of denser these days, a lot of people live increasingly isolated lives. And so in that sense, although the community is larger and people live in closer proximity to each other in the big cities, nevertheless I think they paradoxically live in greater psychological isolation from one another. And that perhaps dictates what they think are the acceptable bounds approaching strangers, even if the strangers are kids. Now, I think that's a bad thing.

KING: All right. Craig Emerson, people have been saying they often don't want to get involved because of the consequences. They too can then face legal action. And one listener told us the story of hearing a woman in a park in Adelaide at night screaming, ‘no, no, no.’ Looked over, saw a man on top of her, went over, got into a fight with the man and the girl later said, ‘well, I was only joking.’ And he ended up on assault charges for punching who he thought was an assailant.

EMERSON: Yeah.

KING: You can understand that man not wanting to get involved again.

EMERSON: Well, I can understand that man not wanting to get involved. But I don't think that that should be the typical example. There are lots of cases, I think, of kids being belted in public by parents, and I hate to see that.

KING: Would you interfere if you saw that?

EMERSON: Yes, I would. I think that these children are innocent and defenceless and we have an obligation to protect them from violence. You talked about kids with bruising. It is an obligation on the part of anyone in authority in Queensland to notify that sort of thing.

KING: But a neighbour's not a ... not an authority?

EMERSON: No, so I'm talking about school teachers ...

KING: Yeah, we understand.

EMERSON: ... and anyone in official positions. And that's why you get a very large number of notifications. But I'd rather be safe than sorry and have that notified. There could well be an innocent explanation, but what if it isn't?

KING: Okay Dr Craig Emerson and Senator George Brandis. So much to get through, so can we keep our answers to the point?

EMERSON: As George always does.

BRANDIS: I think ... I always thought we did, Madonna.

KING: Yes, okay. I was ... I was threatening to bring in a buzzer or a bell if it had got a little bit ...

EMERSON: A gong?

KING: A gong if it got a little bit too ... too long. But we'll see how we go. And let's start with NBN. I should remind everyone also that Communications Minister Senator Stephen Conroy will be here to answer your NBN questions this Friday. But, Dr Craig Emerson, every home in Australia is going to be connected. Is that right? And only then activated once the customer signs up?

EMERSON: What they're doing in Tasmania is they're providing an opt-out provision. So if someone, for some reason, absolutely does not want to be connected to fibre optic cable they can indicate that they do not want to. They will still have the normal telephone services. They would have a copper wire system. But I think over time, as that deteriorated, that copper wire system would be replaced by optical fibre which would allow for NBN. But they don't have to have it if they don't want it.

KING: So when is the completion date for the NBN rollout across Australia, a $43 billion budget?

EMERSON: It's about eight years. It's a program of about eight years. So it started in Tasmania, it's working its way through Queensland. There are some parts of South Australia who are ... that are getting it now.

KING: As you know, this Parliament is very evenly balanced in terms of numbers. George Brandis, once it's started to be rolled out, and that's happening in Tasmania and I think in Townsville too, you're not going to be able to roll it up again, are you?

BRANDIS: Well, I suppose there comes a point at which it's ... it's a fait accompli. And we're ... we're nowhere near that point yet but the ... our concern is that this is a poorly planned program. There was no business plan behind it and we're concerned that it's going to be a great, big white elephant.

KING: All right but at what point do you decide it's been rolled out sufficiently- it's too difficult to roll back in?

BRANDIS: There will come a point, I think, but what that point is I don't think I'm in a position to say in advance.

KING: Do you think the public are largely in support of the NBN or vehemently opposed to it? Or is it very close?

BRANDIS: I think the public is divided. But I think most members of the public are sceptical of its merits. And when Craig was saying a moment ago that in Tasmania they've gone from opt-in arrangement because they were only getting an uptake of 16 per cent ...

EMERSON: No, no, no, no.

BRANDIS: ... to an opt-out arrangement, your listeners should realise that the only reason they can do that is because they've actually carved the NBN out of the Trade Practices Act prohibitions that would prohibit a commercial company from doing the same thing.

KING: All right, what was the take-up and why the decision to opt in rather than ...

EMERSON: Yeah, my recollection is that it's 50 per cent but I don't want...

BRANDIS: No, that's not right.

EMERSON: I don't want to be held to it.

BRANDIS: I'm sorry, with respect ...

EMERSON: It's not 16 per cent.

BRANDIS: With respect, Craig, that's not correct.

EMERSON: But if we're going ... if they're going to achieve a rollout in a timely fashion ...

KING: Yes?

EMERSON: ... you would need to approach each and every household and say, ‘are you okay about this being connected up?’ And that takes time. Now, if people don't want to be connected up they can indicate that. So that's the opt-out provision that the State Government has introduced.

BRANDIS: It's a bit like ... it's what's called in commerce inertia selling. It's essentially no different from the people, the person or the company that sends you an atlas through the mail and says, ‘send it back to us, no obligations attached, but if we don't hear from you in 30 days we'll send you a bill.’

EMERSON: No, no, that's not right.

KING: That happens all the time but, George Brandis ...

EMERSON: That's not right.

KING: ... isn't there also ...

BRANDIS: It's against the law, actually.

KING: Isn't there also a point though ...

EMERSON: It's incorrect.

KING: ... that people move house quite often. So wouldn't that be an argument to actually put it to every house and so that someone's buying into ... into a property it has NBN connected?

BRANDIS: Look, look, look, I leave ... those sorts of details I'll leave to the spokesman, Malcolm Turnbull who, I might say, knows vastly more about this than does the Minister.

KING: All right, so can I say - would you put in a word for us? Because we have been seeking to speak to him about the NBN and so far have been unsuccessful.

BRANDIS: All right. Well, I speak to Malcolm from time to time, so I'll mention it.

EMERSON: But, I've got to say, this is incorrect. You do not have to pay. This is a connection and then if you want to have a high speed provider you make that choice.

BRANDIS: And then you have to pay.

EMERSON: No, if you make that choice, if you make that choice.

BRANDIS: You've got to opt out.

EMERSON: Same thing with the encyclopaedia.

BRANDIS: You've got to opt out.

EMERSON: If you buy it, then of course you have to pay for it. If you don't then the fibre optic cable is connected and that serves as a normal telephone line if that's what you want.

KING: Okay, that's the end of that discussion.

BRANDIS: I think you blew the whistle on your own ...

EMERSON: If that's what you want.

KING: That's the end of that discussion. We're going to go from NBN to Afghanistan and just briefly to this debate which will begin next Tuesday, October 19. There seems to be a rift in how the parties see the treatment of the three Australian soldiers facing charges in Afghanistan. George Brandis, what is the Opposition's position here first?

BRANDIS: The Opposition's position is we're concerned that the three Australian soldiers who have been charged with manslaughter as a result of an operational incident in Oruzgan Province are not being given all of the support that they're entitled to expect by the Australian Government. We're not ... let me emphasise this ...

EMERSON: And what's the basis of that allegation?

BRANDIS: Let me emphasise this: we are not, and Tony Abbott has not, questioned the prosecutor ... the independence of the military prosecutor. But under an act called the Military Discipline Act - Section 5A of the Military Discipline Act - when an Australian soldier is ch ... is prosecuted under the military ... military code, then they are entitled to the provision of certain ... of certain assistance by the Australian Government. And we're concerned that ... funded by the Australian Government including advice from a Queen's Counsel and so on. And we're concerned that that hasn't happened in relation to these three soldiers. More broadly, I think people in the community are, you know, do have a concern about soldiers who are putting their lives on the line in an engagement with the Taliban, finding themselves being prosecuted by their own Government.

EMERSON: You would think that George Brandis, as the equivalent of a QC, would understand the separation of powers, that this ...

BRANDIS: Not separation ...

EMERSON: ... this launching of a prosecution is under legislation introduced and passed by whom? The Howard Government ...

BRANDIS: Yeah, that's right.

EMERSON: With the support of Senator Brandis.

BRANDIS: That's right.

EMERSON: In the Senate.

BRANDIS: That's right.

EMERSON: And now they're saying that there's some huge problem. I just remind your listeners what Tony Abbott said, ‘the last thing that people would want to see is soldiers being stabbed in the back by their own Government and I know a lot of people think that's ...

BRANDIS: Do you disagree with it?

EMERSON: ... what's happening’. I do not accept the despicable allegation that this Government is stabbing soldiers in the back by the fact that we are operating, as we should, under legislation which involves the separation of powers and an independent process. And you have absolutely no basis for alleging that this Government has done something wrong here.

KING: All right, what is your ...

EMERSON: It's independent and that's how it should be.

BRANDIS: First of all, first of all, it's got absolutely nothing to do with the separation of powers. Any Member of Parliament, including the Leader of the Opposition, is perfectly entitled to call into question the wisdom of a prosecution. This matter isn't before the court yet and we don't say that there isn't an independent military prosecutor. There is, in fact, the woman who's the military prosecutor was appointed by the Howard Government ...

EMERSON: That's right, exactly.

BRANDIS: But any Member of Parliament is entitled to call into question the appropriateness of a prosecution, just as any Member of Parliament is entitled to call into question the appropriateness of a sentence ...

EMERSON: ‘The Gillard Government are stabbing soldiers in the back’?

KING: Yes, no, no, Senator George Brandis, the accusation was that the Government is stabbing soldiers in the back.

BRANDIS: I think there's a lot of concern in the community that that's the way this looks.

EMERSON: Do you support those comments?

BRANDIS: Well, what ...

EMERSON: They are despicable.

BRANDIS: I tell you what I do support ...

EMERSON: They are despicable comments.

BRANDIS: This is what Tony Abbott said yesterday, I'm ... quote, ‘I'm far from confident that the Government has done its job in terms of giving these soldiers the best possible defence’. There is provision for the Government to make representations to the Director of Military Justice under Section 5A of the Military Discipline Act and what we, as an Opposition, want to know is just what representations did the Government make on behalf of these soldiers, what kind of legal advice, which QC did they get to provide this kind of legal advice? Has the Government ensured that these soldiers have been given the best ...

KING: All right, are you coming to the end soon?

BRANDIS: ... possible defence?

EMERSON: Exactly.

KING: Okay.

EMERSON: And so what he's saying is, ‘we don't know what support is being provided, but this Government is stabbing soldiers in the back.’ It is despicable ...

KING: All right, and it's a point you have now made several times so I'm turning off your mikes on that issue and we're moving on. You've got to stop or I'm getting out this bell and I'm going to be ringing it in your ears. The saint, Australia's first Catholic saint, will be recognised this weekend. Are either of you excited about that?

EMERSON: We're both Catholics, I think.

BRANDIS: We're all Catholics here. I'm ...

EMERSON: Are you a Catholic, Madonna?

KING: Yes, but are you excited by it?

BRANDIS: I'd say that I'm ... I'm prayerfully happy about it.

KING: Prayerfully happy?

EMERSON: And I'm delighted because I was educated by the sisters of Mary MacKillop's order so ...

BRANDIS: Were you?

EMERSON: So I am a product of Mary MacKillop's ...

KING: Oh, from fighting to best mates.

BRANDIS: Good on you.

EMERSON: ... brethren, yeah, the Sisters of St Joseph.

BRANDIS: Is that right?

EMERSON: Yep.

KING: Boy.

BRANDIS: Is that why you always wear brown ties and brown coats?

EMERSON: I don't always wear brown ties, frankly.

KING: This is a conversation ...

EMERSON: They used to wear black in the middle of 100 degree heat in Baradine.

BRANDIS: They were the brown Josephites.

EMERSON: No, no, they used to wear ... and I felt very sorry for them - 100-century heat - and that's when they had the full hoods with some white across the front and it was so hot.

BRANDIS: The Sisters of Mercy who taught me ...

EMERSON: No wonder they got cranky from time to time. And I don't know - don't know that they had a lot of mercy on your ...

BRANDIS: [Laughs]

KING: I'm just ducking out to make a cup of coffee. When you're finished call me back. Australian retailers have written to the Pope saying that they should be able to use a company name implying a connection with Mother Mary without seeking ministerial approval. Now, Craig Emerson, your boss says the amendment to Corporations Law will provide the highest level of protection for the name. Should Mother Mary's name be ... be owned by the people? Is there any harm in a company ...

EMERSON: I think it should be owned by the Catholic Church, effectively. You know, this is something that is a source of enormous pride. Australia's first Saint, and I think the Catholic Church should have that. That's the view of the Government.

KING: So retailers should not be able to ...

EMERSON: I think that there need to be some proprietorial rights around Mary MacKillop - Saint Mary MacKillop, as she is about to be.

BRANDIS: Yes, I think that's right. There's ... there's a precedent with Don Bradman's name which is protected.

KING: He's the only other one.

EMERSON: I'm not saying Don Bradman ...

BRANDIS: But that was ... but that was because of the ... a request made by the Bradman family. Now, Mary MacKillop obviously doesn't have descendants so if anyone was going to protect the intellectual property in her name, if there is ... if that's the right way to describe it, it probably would either be the Church or the Order.

KING: Okay, so you're both agreeing pretty much on those areas.

EMERSON: Let the record show.

KING: And I suspect you'll agree on this one, too. Julia Gillard yesterday saying, ‘can politics be covered via tweets?’ Like this 24-hour news cycle, when you're announcing something and someone's standing with a television camera behind them, using the press conference perhaps as a backdrop and finding that you're hearing it on Twitter. Do you get the full context of what's being announced and, as politicians do you change how you operate because of this 24-hour news cycle? We're hungry beasts.

EMERSON: I have to confess that I'm oblivious to tweeting, so I haven't changed my behaviour in any way.

BRANDIS: Good on you.

EMERSON: But I think it would be worrying ...

KING: The 24-hour news channel, for example.

EMERSON: I think it would be worrying if I did, if I felt the need to change my behaviour. Because that is to modify yourself and you try to be yourself as best you can, even though we are politicians.

KING: She used Twitter as one example but it's also the 24-hour news cycle. It used to be, you know, perhaps the newspapers in the morning and the TV news at night.

EMERSON: No, that's true.

BRANDIS: Right.

KING: Now you have hourly deadlines, half-hourly deadlines.

BRANDIS: That's right.

KING: You have, you know, internet news sites that are hungry and people ...

BRANDIS: Sure. Look, I think there are two quite different considerations at play here, Madonna. The 24-hour news cycle means that the velocity of events increases.

KING: Well, you've made it into a maths equation.

BRANDIS: Well, no, no but ...

EMERSON: E=mc squared.

BRANDIS: Things happen a lot faster because somebody might say something on AM Agenda, for example, and within three hours somebody is responding on a subsequent news program. On the other hand, when you're talking about tweeting, a practice which I don't engage in myself ...

KING: No, I couldn't imagine you doing that.

BRANDIS: No, no, I couldn't imagine myself either. I think you're talking about the trivialisation to a point of almost infantilising events. Reducing you know, political discussion to ...

EMERSON: To 140 characters, isn't it?

BRANDIS: ... two or three or four words, whatever. Or you know a couple of dozen words maybe. I think it’s bound to make what is already a process that is at risk of being superficial, more superficial still.

EMERSON: And Madonna, people say that newspapers are about to die. I think newspapers still play a vital role. They do online, all the time. I check online quite often. But the morning newspapers do a lot of agenda setting. And thank goodness for that because you can get some quality commentary. You can get journalists not feeling under an obligation to file a story, every half hour, or even more frequently than that.

BRANDIS: I think that's right.

KING: This is a question that's just come in from Terry, can we ask the Senators, you've just been made a Senator, Dr Craig ...

BRANDIS: Senator Emerson, congratulations, Craig. Knew you'd make it one day.

KING: ... why people on paired phone lines, which is common in new estates, cannot get high speed internet currently?

EMERSON: Well I think we'll wait for Senator Conroy to come onto the program.

KING: Alright, but then we will ask ...

BRANDIS: Good luck expecting Senator Conroy to know the answer.

EMERSON: I'm sure he will.

KING: Now, briefly on a couple of other issues. These baby leave payments that kick in from January 1. Small business will administer them. How much trouble is that going to cause small business, Craig Emerson?

EMERSON: Look, not a lot. I've had a good look at this, as ... when I was the Small Business Minister. It does maintain a connection with the mother who's going off on maternity leave. I know the Coalition's view is that this should be paid on an ongoing basis by Centrelink, which gives it more of the dimension of a welfare payment, or a transfer payment, this is actually paid parental leave. And yes, the taxpayers are paying it. But there is a very good case for people understanding that it is a payment in lieu of working, because they're having a baby, and maintaining that connection with the small business.

KING: Alright, do you think small business, or Centrelink, should be responsible for this?

BRANDIS: Look, I think that we need to be very careful about putting yet more regulatory burdens on small business.

KING: Okay, so we'll leave that one there. Two more questions to ask. Queensland's seeking to get more Brits to come to visit. Last year it was an offer of the best job in the world, now it's an offer to win a holiday worth up to $100,000. If you were tasked with selling Queensland for one thing, what would it be?

BRANDIS: Ah, lifestyle.

EMERSON: I think the wet tropics of North Queensland are a wonderful place, and an attraction that would be quite unique for someone coming from Great Britain, given its climate. There wouldn't be a lot of tropical rainforests in Edinburgh on the outskirts of London.

KING: If we had more time, I'd actually get you to write the ad. But a final one, this intrigued me out of the newspapers this morning. The number of animals covered by accidents and illnesses has skyrocketed from 100,000 pets to close to 190,000 in the past year. That's twice as many cats and dogs covered by insurance. Just intrigued, when last did you have a pet, and what was it?

BRANDIS: The last pets I had were a pair of basset hounds called Winston and Jemima.

EMERSON: Oh, no [laughs].

KING: Winston and Jemima?

EMERSON: He can't let politics go, Winston Howard, I wonder why ...

KING: And who's Jemima after?

EMERSON: Glad he didn't have three.

BRANDIS: Neither of them were after anything. Really, my male Basset hound just looked as if he should be called Winston.

EMERSON: You were just being nice to John Winston Howard. We've got a cat, Lucy. She's a lovely pussycat. And we've got three chooks, Mottle Bird, Brown Neck, and Brown Feather.

KING: And you use the eggs?

EMERSON: And they lay eggs every day.

KING: So you're a cat person, you're a dog person?

EMERSON: Correct.

BRANDIS: Well I'm a dog person, you're a cat person.

EMERSON: I am, yes.

BRANDIS: Well you look a bit like a cat person.

KING: Dr Craig Emerson, thank you.

EMERSON: That's a very feline comment, George.

KING: Senator George Brandis, thank you.

BRANDIS: Thank you, Madonna, and you, Craig.

END

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