Interview with Alan Jones, 2GB
Subject: Beef importation
Transcript - E&OE
3 March 2010
ALAN JONES: The Trade Minister is on the line, Minister good morning.
SIMON CREAN: Hi Alan, how are you?
ALAN JONES: Good to talk to you.
SIMON CREAN: You too.
ALAN JONES: You don't want to be digging a hole for yourself.
SIMON CREAN: No I'm not going to.
ALAN JONES: Well I hope not. [Laughter] I don't know what your experience of agriculture is.
SIMON CREAN: People have suggested that on many occasions before Alan.
ALAN JONES: Yes.
SIMON CREAN: [Indistinct].
ALAN JONES: But why would we be wanting, and I mean I have to say you made this decision in conjuncture with Tony Burke the Agriculture Minister and Nicola Roxon, the Health Minister, why would you want to be allowing the importation of beef from countries with cases of mad cow disease at the expense of 200,000 Australian cattle producers and might I say 22 million Australian consumers?
SIMON CREAN: Well can I make this point from the outset Alan, we will not be allowing the import of any beef that has BSE in it. We're not.
Now what you've said in terms of the introduction is that from today beef countries can send their beef to Australia. That is not right. If they've got BSE, from today they can apply to have it come in.
ALAN JONES: If they've had BSE you mean?
SIMON CREAN: If they'd had BSE, they can apply for it to come in.
ALAN JONES: Yes.
SIMON CREAN: We've had no application yet…
ALAN JONES: No.
SIMON CREAN: …by the way and in circumstances in which they make that application they have to go through the most rigorous of tests. Tests such that the chief of the Food Standards Australia is - has said on the record that we can be 100 per cent certain that imported beef products are BSE free. Now I think this is really important Alan, because I know there's been a lot of concern out there at the thought that what we will be doing is importing BSE. We will not and that's the guarantee that can be given by the person who has the - the authority that has got responsibility for making decisions as to whether or not it comes in.
ALAN JONES: You're not talking about [indistinct] McCutcheon are you?
SIMON CREAN: One hundred per - I am.
ALAN JONES: McCutcheon? You've got to be kidding. Are you listening to Ste… a bloke called Steve McCutcheon from the Department of Health?
SIMON CREAN: No I'm talking about - yeah Mr Mc…no from Food Standards Australia who have the responsibility in terms of developing the protocols, the protocols which have been done in consultation with…
ALAN JONES: They're not even complete Simon.
SIMON CREAN: …the industry.
ALAN JONES: Simon the protocols that are to govern all of this aren't even complete.
SIMON CREAN: They're up on the website Alan and they have been consulted with the beef industry.
ALAN JONES: I beg your pardon?
SIMON CREAN: There have been consultations with the beef industry.
ALAN JONES: Sections of the beef industry.
SIMON CREAN: Well the - the peak body that represents all of the beef.
ALAN JONES: But you understand that the peak body, what the Treasurer is saying is correct, the Red Meat Advisory Council, that mob have in fact been in consultation with these people. Simon the reason the meeting was in Armidale is these people are up in arms about the bodies that represent them.
They say they are completely out of touch and they're wrong. Now even this Professor Matthews who was the independent consultant to the Department of Health, who provided a report to you on the science surrounding the human impact of the importation of beef from BSE countries, he said there would be negligible risk. No one can say the risk is eliminated. Negligible risk.
SIMON CREAN: No but hang on Alan. The negligible risk aspect as a result of this decision, compared to there being a risk of us getting BSE now which we can get. Even if there were no bans lifted, we can take - we are required to take beef from New Zealand at the moment. New Zealand has a clean green image. It's got the same standards as we're seeking to apply here.
Now the problem that we've got Alan is that if there were an outbreak of BSE in this country and that could happen, that could happen regardless of this decision that we took last year. If there were to be an outbreak, all the beef in the country would have to be taken off the shelves. What do you think that would do to the beef industry in this country?
ALAN JONES: Well it would destroy it but you're adding to the potential to that by bringing in beef from countries - so you have no - Simon you're not a farmer mate. You're not a farmer. The farmers know the story here. You've not done an import analysis on this.
You've done an import risk assessment and that's just a process driven by a response to a questionnaire so the applicant country, America, fills out all these questions. Well that's an import risk assessment. You have not done an import risk analysis which in the part [sic] has been done - in the past has been done for apples and bananas and chickens and prawns, why won't you ask for an import risk analysis of this which will take a couple of years? It will take a couple of years. It will look at all the risks. It will look at in detail life traceability of the cattle from birth to death. You can't guarantee that beef coming in from America hasn't in fact originated in Mexico.
SIMON CREAN: Let's go to each of those points. As for an ind…and IRA, risk assessment, all that does is to determine the risk to the animal, not to human health. The risk to the animal can't happen here Alan because there's only two ways an animal can get BSE, either because we import live cattle or because it is fed beef product. We ban both of those avenues. So an IRA is not going to determine anything over that two years that we don't already know or…
ALAN JONES: No I agree with that.
SIMON CREAN: …that we don't have guarantees for.
ALAN JONES: But I agree with that, but you haven't done an import risk analysis is what you should be doing, you haven't done that.
SIMON CREAN: No what we're saying is that we will insist on the countries from which the beef is brought having the same traceability mechanisms as we have.
ALAN JONES: But they haven't.
SIMON CREAN: We're not going to require a…
ALAN JONES: But they haven't.
SIMON CREAN: …of our beef producers a different standard than we will require…
ALAN JONES: Yeah but ha…
SIMON CREAN: …of those sending it.
ALAN JONES: But hang on, have you told America this? I mean that means there'll be no beef…
SIMON CREAN: Yes.
ALAN JONES: So we will not be importing - you're telling me now on this program we will not import beef from America because they don't have full life traceability? You have no way of knowing with the porous borders of America whether American beef that's being exported to Australia comes from Mexico where it could have anything?
SIMON CREAN: If we don't - if we haven't got confirmation of the ability to trace the animal it won't come in. That is exactly right. That's what I'm saying to you. Those countries will be required to have the same traceability as we have. Now I have…
ALAN JONES: I don't understand why you've then made this decision this week when we haven't had this import risk analysis. Just for the benefit of our listeners, what the minister - this is Simon Crean talking about traceability, that means there is a system in place in Australia. If for example a lump of beef was sold at Ballarat it would be possible to trace the fact that that was originally a calf at Longreach and the calf was bought by a farmer at Scone and he sold it at Tamworth and it was killed in an abattoir up there and eventually finished on the table of someone in Ballarat, that's full traceability from birth to the marketplace.
Now America don't have that system in place and yet you're saying we're not doing an import risk analysis but an import risk analysis would require us to do all those things in relation to reducing these tariffs. You've reduced the tariff before the import risk analysis is done.
SIMON CREAN: The risk analysis doesn't require us to do that. Our protocols require us to do that.
ALAN JONES: Well the WTO allows you, allows you to conduct an import risk analysis.
SIMON CREAN: Well, but Alan, I've just answered the question about the independent risk analysis, that goes to the impact on the animal, the herd. What I thought we were talking - and I've tried to explain, in fact I have explained why that can't happen here so the independent risk analysis won't take us any further from that point.
What we are concerned about, obviously, is the human health element. That's why we've put in place the protocols that will require traceability, will require the in-country assessment. Not just the ticking of the box. The ticking of the box is the first step, Alan.
If they tick the box, we then need to be satisfied that what they've ticked is accurate, and that's where we would send people to there to satisfy ourselves that what had been ticked was accurate, that what existed was a traceability mechanism similar to ours.
Now, as I say to you, Alan, we have put a lot of time and effort into this, and we're dealing with a lot of sensational claims which, in my view, don't fully understand the facts.
ALAN JONES: Well, hang on…
SIMON CREAN: We have sought to deal at every point…
ALAN JONES: Farmers aren't - let me tell you one fact that you don't understand, right, and you haven't told - and I didn't raise this. I'm waiting for you to tell us.
SIMON CREAN: Yeah.
ALAN JONES: But, you see, you keep using the word protocols…
SIMON CREAN: Yes.
ALAN JONES: … that everything's going to be protected by the protocols.
SIMON CREAN: Yes.
ALAN JONES: Righto. Now, the protocols have no review process. The protocols have not been submitted to the Parliament of Australia. They've not been submitted to public discussion. The only accountability about the protocols are to food and whatever they're called, Food Safety Australia and New Zealand(*). They determine the protocols.
You have admitted they haven't been completed. There's no requirement that they be subject to any scrutiny before they are completed.
Food Safety Australia and New Zealand can change the protocols any time, but are not accountable to the Parliament, to the people, to you or to anybody.
SIMON CREAN: They will be accountable to us. They have been completed. They have been posted publicly and there has been consultation with the beef industry as to the content of those protocols. They're out there, Alan. I can send them to you later today.
ALAN JONES: Well, I wish you would. I haven't…
SIMON CREAN: Well, they're out there. This is the point I'm making.
ALAN JONES: No.
SIMON CREAN: And they've been out there since two weeks.
ALAN JONES: Just answer this question…
SIMON CREAN: Mmm.
ALAN JONES: … don't we blan… ban blood donations from anyone who lived in Britain for six months between 1980 and 1996 when Britain destroyed four million cattle to control its outbreak of BSE? We banned blood but we can eat the meat.
SIMON CREAN: We do that because the people lived in the country at the time in which they could have ingested it into their system.
It's interesting that there is no blood banned from people subsequent to that. And the Blood Bank has also looked at what we've done here, and they've given it the tick of approval too.
ALAN JONES: I just want to come back to the point I've made about the risk analysis.
SIMON CREAN: Yeah.
ALAN JONES: A complete risk analysis was commissioned in 2004 in relation to pork.
SIMON CREAN: Yeah.
ALAN JONES: We've had a risk analysis for apples, a risk analysis for bananas, a risk analysis for chickens and a risk analysis for prawns. Why don't we have an import risk analysis, which, as a process, would be driven by us looking at all the risks, would look in detail at full life traceability in the cattle, from birth to death. It would look at all the animal risks, as well as the human risks. It would be driven by scientists and the cattle industry here. Why are we reducing tariffs, making these changes without a full import risk analysis?
SIMON CREAN: Because the risk analysis in relation to all of those other products that you've mentioned, Alan, was required because we did not import any of those products before. We have been importers of beef before.
The independent risk analysis will not tell us any more than we already know, because the IRA is about identifying the threat to the herd. This is the point I'm making.
Now, I know this is complex and, quite frankly, I've spent months trying to understand…
ALAN JONES: Okay.
SIMON CREAN: … this issue and to be satisfied myself. I'm a former Minister for Primary Industries and Energy. I've had a lot to do with the agricultural industry.
ALAN JONES: Okay.
SIMON CREAN: I've had a lot to do with the quarantine [indistinct]…
ALAN JONES: Can I just say that a lot of your colleagues.
SIMON CREAN: And I tell you this…
ALAN JONES: Simon.
SIMON CREAN: … I've got great confidence in our beef industry, Alan. I would not be doing this if I thought it was putting it or the consuming public at risk. But the truth is, the beef industry came to us. They said our industry is at risk - is at risk unless we change. We've also ensured what we're…
ALAN JONES: The industry's at risk unless you change. The industry's at risk now because you have changed.
SIMON CREAN: I know…
ALAN JONES: It's putting thousands of…
SIMON CREAN: I don't believe…
ALAN JONES: This is going to bring about 50,000 tonnes of beef into Australia. Fifty thousand tonnes of beef is equivalent to about 357,000 cattle.
SIMON CREAN: Alan…
ALAN JONES: So someone's going to lose out. We already produce more beef than we need.
SIMON CREAN: Even before we had this ban on, the amount of beef imported to this country was negligible. Australians love their own beef. So good is Australian beef that we export two-thirds of it. Why have we been able to export…
ALAN JONES: Well, why are we importing stuff, for God's sake? So you people ran madly on WorkChoices.
SIMON CREAN: I don't believe - we're not doing this to allow imports, Alan.
ALAN JONES: Mmm.
SIMON CREAN: That will be a consequence if people pass the procedures. We're doing it…
ALAN JONES: Let me just ask you…
SIMON CREAN: No, no, let me just finish. We are doing this because the industry came to us and said, if you don't do this, our industry is at risk.
ALAN JONES: That's rubbish.
SIMON CREAN: If we have an outbreak of BSE in this country…
ALAN JONES: That's rubbish.
SIMON CREAN: It's not rubbish.
ALAN JONES: It is rubbish.
SIMON CREAN: No…
ALAN JONES: Look, let me tell you who's at risk, Simon.
SIMON CREAN: … [indistinct] but it isn't rubbish.
ALAN JONES: We've got to go, but I want to tell you who's at risk. You ran a campaign… now let me tell you who's at risk. Simon, let me tell you who's at risk, because you're a former president of the ACTU…
SIMON CREAN: Yeah.
ALAN JONES: … and a person from Manly Vale writing to the papers today says: the hypocrisy is that this government was so concerned about workers' rights, it abolished WorkChoices because it claimed that was unfair. Yet they think it a fair thing to place meat workers' jobs at risk with beef importation. Now, that is undeniable.
Abattoirs will close and beef producers will go out of business because the cost of importing a kilo of beef from America is 58 cents, for God's sake, and Australians can't compete with that, because in America it's subsidised by the Government. And jobs are at risk, abattoirs will close, beef producers will go out of business and you are a former president of the ACTU looking after the worker.
SIMON CREAN: I will always look after the worker, Alan. I have done so all of my working life and I will continue to do it. But I am required, as a responsible minister, to have regard to what the industry says. I'm required to have regard to what our international requirements say. I'm required to take decisions that ensure that the industry is not put at risk. And what I'm saying to you, as much as you can assert the risk that comes from this decision - and I'll go through every step, and I'll take as long as you like to go through every step by which we will avoid that risk, there is another risk. And that is, if we don't change, if there's an outbreak anywhere in this country, all the beef will have to come off the shelf. That's what we are required to do under…
ALAN JONES: We know all about that. By importing beef from other countries, Simon - I'm going to have the final say. And by importing beef from other countries, you are li… increasing the likelihood of that very thing happening.
But if we have to talk again, I'm more than happy to talk to you. We have run out of time, but I do thank you for being on the program.
SIMON CREAN: Okay.
ALAN JONES: Okay.
SIMON CREAN: Okay Alan.
ALAN JONES: That's Simon Crean, the Minister for Trade.
Media inquiries
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